Author Topic: Porked. (Read 790 times)

fscott · « **on:** October 21, 2000, 01:38:00 AM »

I'm not one to be cynical and you can check my posts and see that I haven't been critical at all of any of this sims points, but I've seen something that makes me wonder about the C-Hog's flight modelling.

I am flying along direct at a C-HOG at my 12 o'clock low I had a good 2-3k on him. I am flying at AOA of -25 degrees, and my speed indicated very close to 400mph. When we are about 1.2 clicks from each other he begins his incline. He passes below me and I do nothing with the stick, just continue on at roughly 400mph. I pivot my head around to see what he does. Right out of a Star War's clip he does a complete 180, and is on my six at about 1 click. IMMEDIATELY he begins to gain on me rapidly. SO rapidly that I had only enough time to start my split-S and start for the dirt when I hear the thunderous pings hitting my plane. I am dumbfounded.

I am not ignorant to the posts on this board about the debate between the C-hog's flight model, but I can't be quiet now that I have witnessed this phenomenon. I know what someone is going to say: warping, thats the internet. Hm, funny I've never seen this happen when fighting any other birds, and I've never witnessed this specific phenomenon in warpville WB.

I am not taking sides at all on this matter. The title is to catch your attention, and the post is to make my incident known. But I think this is something that HT should look at very closely. It has all but ruined my opinion on the quality of AH's flight models. Now I wonder what else is off.

fscott

Maverick · « **Reply #1 on:** October 21, 2000, 02:00:00 AM »

Fscot,

It may not have been AH's FM you were seeing. There have been hackers in the game already. Did you get that guys name?

Mav

hblair · « **Reply #2 on:** October 21, 2000, 02:04:00 AM »

What were you flying? What altitude were you? Are you sure you were going 400? Or close to 400? It sounds like he lead turned you. He may have just come out of a 5k shallow dive, with a full head of steam. Who knows? Theres lots of factors that could go into this.

I just haven't seen F4U's do anything that couldnt be explained, and i've flown this game a lot and for many months.

Heck, I fly 109's and 190's, what people call a 'luftwabble', but I just don't see all these porked planes people scream about, especially the hawg C, maybe the guns are strong, but the FM seems average.

fscott · « **Reply #3 on:** October 21, 2000, 02:12:00 AM »

Maverick, do we have proof that there has been hackers? This is disconcerting. I certainly hope that is an opinion rather than fact. I would much rather see a porked flight model than a hacker.

hblair I know what you are talking about. He was not diving prior to meeting me, in fact he was flying straight and level for quite some time as I was watching him when he was just a little dot. My altitude was around 6k I am guessing he was around 4k. When we passed he was not more than 500 feet below me, after we passed he pulled BACK on his stick while rolling the plane over, hm there's a name for that.

If an F4U1-C could actually do this in battle then I am sure it would have been documented. If someone could advise some pilot stories recounting these amazing maneuvers with the C-Hog I would be interested. The thing is, most books I have all state that the F4UD was the best of the F4 series.

fscott

Yeager · « **Reply #4 on:** October 21, 2000, 02:22:00 AM »

Chogs have done this to me on several occasions lately! Ive been dumbfounded but let me tell you I have learned to stear clear of the things by several clicks if I can at all manage.

Also, its not the same fella and thier names are (cough) respected!....foul play is not involved. The damn things reverse like nothing I have ever seen.

Yeager

newguy · « **Reply #5 on:** October 21, 2000, 02:57:00 AM »

The chog pilot that fscott is refering too is NOT a hacker.

newguy
The Wrecking Crew

funked · « **Reply #6 on:** October 21, 2000, 03:03:00 AM »

I think it's called a lead turn.

Also, how did you manage -25 degrees AOA at 400 mph? That would tear the airframe apart assuming you could get enough elevator travel to reach that AOA. Who's the hacker?

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-21-2000).]

gatt · « **Reply #7 on:** October 21, 2000, 03:19:00 AM »

Fscott,

I've seen and red many times about those things, and usually they are Hogs and Nikis.
Anyway, I think that sometimes in AcesHigh what you see is NOT what you get (ok what we have here is a WYSINWYG interface) due to net-lag, flip turns, lead turns, E-saving flight model and last but not least old hands who know very well how to drive their kites. IMHO, with 1.04 those things happen more often
I dont think he was a cheater, he was only gaming the game, it is absolutely normal. An online flight sim cant be perfect. Live with it. I'm trying to.

Funked,
during pilon races, at what speed do they enter the turn and how fast are they after it?

Regards,

------------------
GATT
4° Stormo Caccia - Knights

Yeager · « **Reply #8 on:** October 21, 2000, 03:28:00 AM »

Funked,

1) Two planes merge head on, co-alt at combat power.

2) Both planes blow through the merge.

3) one plane continues straight and level after merge.

4) other plane reverses immediately, gives chase, and quickly closes within guns range.

How does this scenario describe a lead turn?
====
This has happened to me several times within the past week and the other plane was always a F4U with cannon and I have always been in P51D.

In the most extreme case I went nose down from 20k and entered semi controlled compression but could not distance myself from the pursuer before cannon strikes vaporized me.

If this is correct then I accept it. I just want someone, anyone to tell me this is an accurate instance of combat between these two plane types.

Yeager

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #9 on:** October 21, 2000, 03:53:00 AM »

I've noticed that virtually any aircraft I've tried to dive past and extend from has caught me. Every single one.. no matter what they were flying.

I've found that diving past the enemy is simply a bad maneuver now. Instead, if he is 2k below me... and at a similar speed... I go verticle. That's usually when the person below me realizes that he isn't the only one that knows how to zoom... or how to rope a dope.

AKDejaVu

Cabby · « **Reply #10 on:** October 21, 2000, 04:16:00 AM »

Quote:

"I've noticed that virtually any aircraft I've tried to dive past and extend from has caught me. Every single one.. no matter what they were flying."

Really?? Hmmmm......

Cabby

------------------
=44th FS "VAMPIRES"=
"The Jungle Air Force"
Welcome To The Jungle!!!"

RAM · « **Reply #11 on:** October 21, 2000, 05:19:00 AM »

I know where this thread is heading. Lephturn and Verm will come and say "post me numbers and/or film or I won't believe it and so it is BS".

And the thread will go down and eventually will be one forgotten thread more warning that the Hogs are UFOs.

It's not one or two saying this. many people witness F4Us doing the incredible. and we have their (our) stories. I don't press alt-r each time I engage in a ,there is people who do it, but there is a majory who don't. So asking for film is a way to say "I dont believe you".

Oh, yeah only film makes it worth believing as we are a bunch of liers.

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 10-21-2000).]

funked · « **Reply #12 on:** October 21, 2000, 05:59:00 AM »

Yeager, to see how that describes a lead turn, get a copy of "Fighter Combat" by Robert Shaw. There are some nice diagrams therein, and the one on page 76 is what I am talking about. One guy flies straight, the other uses flight path separation and a well timed 180 to get on the other guy's 6. If the turner has enough speed margin before the turn he can still have enough speed after the turn to close range on his target. And of course during the turn, the range can be closing even if the turner is flying at a lower speed. With netlag, the target might see the turner making this move behind him. But on the turner's FE it's a different story.

My take on this whole "problem":

Niklas' tests of sustained turn speed and rate show that the F4U has a heck of a lot of induced drag at low speeds.

Wells' tests of AH F4U energy retention show it is nothing special compared to the other AH planes, and its performance matches closely what his own physics calculations predict.

I have been doing my own offline tests of 3g zooms from 400 mph at sea level, and the F4U-1C results are, again, nothing special compared to the other planes.

I think this "problem" is one of four things:

1. Hackers

2. An error in the FM in some regime that Wells and others have not been able to cover in testing.

3. Net lag.

4. People are simply getting beat by better pilots, and instead of working on their own ACM skills and knowledge, they take the easy route and try to blame the software.

I suspect it is #3 and #4 in combination, but it could be #1 or #2. It's going to take some film of these supposed UFO maneuvers to narrow the choices down.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-21-2000).]

Ripsnort · « **Reply #13 on:** October 21, 2000, 08:16:00 AM »

Film every engagement. I have a hot key set up so when I hit wep on, film goes on too.

Vladd · « **Reply #14 on:** October 21, 2000, 08:22:00 AM »

I amazed Whels the other night in a situation not unlike the one described above. We both approached each other at speed in shallow dives - I put my nose down further to open flight path seperation for a vertical leadturn and pulled up pretty early.

Result - I was about 1k on his 6, but found myself gradually overhauling his aircraft, and subsequently caught him.

Whels is an experienced pilot I remember and respect from AW, and couldn't believe how I had done this.

Only 2 explainations from what I can see :

1) There is some kind of FM quirk that allowed this to happen.

2) Although we were both fast, I was simply faster. I don't know for sure what my speed was, but it must have been 400 or thereabouts when I started to pullup.

I don't want to believe option 1; although I can't rule it out, I think option 2 must be much more likely. Needless to say, I don't have film, Whels if you are reading this do you? I'd be fascinated to see it as I must admit I did not really expect to close on you straight away. Ultimately without film proof of something screwy however, I'm going to give HTC the benefit of the doubt.

One other point: Whels was flying an F4U. I was in a P51.

Vladd
56Sqd 'Firebirds'