Author Topic: Green Card Marines (Read 1542 times)

Maverick · « **Reply #30 on:** April 13, 2003, 01:15:17 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dowding
Oh no, Yeager, some Muslim might get into your country via putting his life on the line! The horror, the humanity!

Hey Dowding. Why not??? We let Irish Catholics and English Protestants in. You haven't been able to get them to stop killing each other in your own back yard yet so why tell anyone else how to handle a person with a religous background different from your own.

Here isn the U.S. they seem to coexist nicely.

BTW don't bother with the "it's complicated" remark to explain it.

Dowding · « **Reply #31 on:** April 13, 2003, 01:31:40 PM »

My comment was sarcastic, you dolt.

So you ask a question and then answer it for me yourself? You're starting to sound like Grunherz.

Although I don't know how NI figures in this (other than a piss poor red herring on your part), when people are on their own land (as they perceive it to be), they react a little differently. That too 'complicated' for you to understand?

Maverick · « **Reply #32 on:** April 13, 2003, 01:39:48 PM »

My comment was sarcastic as well you dimwitted dolt.

I would have thought that a Brit would have spotted the irony but I guess I gave you more credit than you deserve.

Dowding · « **Reply #33 on:** April 13, 2003, 01:48:34 PM »

Ironic? What, are you Alanis Morasette?

You basically compared 30 years of sectarian violence to some mythical religious struggle within the US military, then tried to make out that the lack of any connection was in some way insightful.

I'm sorry, maybe I am dim-witted. But I missed the irony.

anonymous · « **Reply #34 on:** April 13, 2003, 01:57:48 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Chairboy
Anonymous, obviously you haven't, or you would understand the following:

1. Compatmentalization means that not every private has detailed knowledge of all upcoming military action.

2. To get to a level where you DO know this stuff involves some heavy duty background checks.

This is not some 'Star Wars' situation where, once you're in the miitary, you can just 'plug in' and 'interpret the entire imperial network'.

Your post betrays a lack of knowledge, a ridiculously inaccurate view of security, and the disgraceful flavor of racism.

a lack of knolwedge? racism? you are unaware of how things have been going in the real world for the last couple of years at least dude. in a perfect world, on paper, everyone is cleared before access. did you miss my mentioning that the people who perform background investigations for TS and above are totally backlogged? i hold several high level clearances. in the civilian sector alone, something like two thirds of the civilian workers who needed to be cleared TS or higher for their work were being given access to sensitive data before any background checks performed. if they have massive backlog on TS or higher you think thats from all the investigators working on sub secret type backgrounds on people entering military? i speak from experience dude i had a student three weeks from graduating advanced six month training course where minimum level clearance for all student is secret and with three weeks to go they found out he not a citizen. he not trying to be sneaky was told bogus info by recruiters but still this guy had access to serious stuff and no one dealing with ci or security had a clue hed lived in America for all of a month or two which was how long it took for him to cross border go to recruiter then wait to ship for bootcamp. dude i never said i have any problems with non citizen in military. i did have problem with statement that now appears to have been inside joke between dowding and yeager. in theory what you say is correct but the theory and the applicable reality are far apart right now. and if you are calling me racist then you are calling many racist because many understand there is reason for non citizen to not have access to certain information or to hold certain job in military. you never answered my question were you ever in military or ever cleared for access to classified information? my answer to both is very big yes.

anonymous · « **Reply #35 on:** April 13, 2003, 02:04:50 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Chairboy
Your post betrays a lack of knowledge, a ridiculously inaccurate view of security, and the disgraceful flavor of racism.

yo chairboy another question for you. you dead wrong on all counts but explain to me how citizenship is a race? what have i typed that make you think i am racists? big mistakes on lack of knolwedge and innacurate view security excusable as you not know what i do for job.

anonymous · « **Reply #36 on:** April 13, 2003, 04:47:27 PM »

never mind the questions chairboy. someone with more internet time just explained some things to me. well have to agree to disagree i guess. you think i know nothing of the military and classified information handling and that im a racist. i disagree. you must be a smart guy pegging me so well after reading a few sentences typed by me.

rogwar · « **Reply #37 on:** April 13, 2003, 06:00:26 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by anonymous
chairboy you ever served in military or been cleared for access to sensitive or classified information?

Howdy folks! Been gone awhile...spring turkey season and my continuing world travel.

A general answer to your question....

Speaking from first hand experience as a witness and former clearance holder, it takes a lot of time to get cleared being a foreigner. Having said that, there are a significant number of dedicated nationalized Americans (and there were a few in the process of such) in very classified areas in and outside of the military working with intel and signals intercept.

I don't know what age group you may be in but it's obvious that you never worked in the last 15 years in an area that required TS or higher clearance.

Moreover, if you review the published information (take my word on the non-published stuff), they were American-born citizens that sold us out when such an event ocurred within the last 20 years (with the exception of some sensitive info on nukes that went to China).

The USA is an immigrant nation. Let's not forget that truth. Especially when someone desiring to be an American pays the ultimate price in service to our country.

...and fellas: That story about the boy from Central America brought tears to my eyes. From Saving Private Rayn, "Earn it."

rogwar out

anonymous · « **Reply #38 on:** April 13, 2003, 11:25:41 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by rogwar
Howdy folks! Been gone awhile...spring turkey season and my continuing world travel.

A general answer to your question....

Speaking from first hand experience as a witness and former clearance holder, it takes a lot of time to get cleared being a foreigner. Having said that, there are a significant number of dedicated nationalized Americans (and there were a few in the process of such) in very classified areas in and outside of the military working with intel and signals intercept.

I don't know what age group you may be in but it's obvious that you never worked in the last 15 years in an area that required TS or higher clearance.

Moreover, if you review the published information (take my word on the non-published stuff), they were American-born citizens that sold us out when such an event ocurred within the last 20 years (with the exception of some sensitive info on nukes that went to China).

The USA is an immigrant nation. Let's not forget that truth. Especially when someone desiring to be an American pays the ultimate price in service to our country.

...and fellas: That story about the boy from Central America brought tears to my eyes. From Saving Private Rayn, "Earn it."

rogwar out

hey im ts right now among other things. this stupidity started when i responded to something that i didnt know was a inside joke between two guys who are regulars on this bb. i was defending the practice of non citizens not being given access to certain jobs and certain information as easily as citizens which is the practice that you just confirmed takes place. you know and i know that citizenship is important check because it verifies that person being cleared didnt 'walk off the boat' from somewhere in the past weeks or months or couple of years and you also know why this is important when dealing with foreign intelligence services. my argument was never about immigrants and that they are supposedly cleared for ts or higher too easily and i never said anything other than positive about non citizens serving in armed forces. my argument was against people saying that there was no reason to require citizenship for certain positions and information. immigrants in military and deserving citizenship and immigrants being base level higher risk category with regards to sensitive information or job and foreign intelligence are two different things. recognizing this doesnt make me racist does it? and when i speak of background checks not always getting done even for high level clearance and such im speaking from recent experience. the checkee has to do the paperwork but the paperwork isnt always verified. for what its worth im active usn and ive been cleared secret or higher since i joined over fifteen years ago. most of that time ive been cleared ts and higher for some things. maybe it was different with you but i know for a fact that there were times where the check never took place or took place so late that i already had access for significant amount of time.

anonymous · « **Reply #39 on:** April 13, 2003, 11:44:52 PM »

rogwar email me through the bb if you would ive got this sense that we have really similar backgrounds.

BGBMAW · « **Reply #40 on:** April 14, 2003, 01:18:04 PM »

Please post the soldiers name that died .... from Guatamala..

Salute
BiGB

AKIron · « **Reply #41 on:** April 14, 2003, 01:56:35 PM »

BTW, all active duty Marines have "green cards".

Mini D · « **Reply #42 on:** April 14, 2003, 02:10:31 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by VAQ
When Robert A. Heinlein proposed this idea in Starship Troopers (1959) the public labeled him a fascist and a militarist.

Ummmm... I believe he presented citizenship as something that had to be earned and was not an entitlement. That's quite a bit different than what is being discussed here. "Fascist" and "Militarist" were not labels applied because he wanted foreigners to have to go through the military to get citizenship, but because he wanted everyone (even descendants of citizens) to do it.

MiniD

Stringer · « **Reply #43 on:** April 14, 2003, 02:10:41 PM »

Actually Dowding,
If you look above your sarcastic post abit, it looked like Yeager changed his position. It also appears by his second post it was due to others posting rationally and non-sacrcastically.

I'm not saying I don't enjoy your barbs, because I do. I just think you missed Yeager's second post where he changed his position.

BTW, since my wife carried a "Green Card" for years, I support that if they served, they deserve to become a citizen. Hell, it's more than the majority of posters here have done.....from or for any country.

Maverick · « **Reply #44 on:** April 14, 2003, 10:41:12 PM »

Here goes another flame invitation.

I happen to agree with Heinlien in his writings that a true citizen os one who puts country and their society above self. Those that are willing to place their own lives on the line to defend their country are in fact true citizens. They have shown with their actions they have more at stake in the country than just being a citizen by accident of birth. Those folks are displaying true dedication to country duty and honor.

Citizenship should be earned, not simply bestowed by virtue of where you were whelped. If you aren't willing to "earn" it then you are less of a citizen in my eyes.

Those Marines, Soldiers and Sailors who served a country without benefit of "citizenship" have far more of my respect than most who were born in this country and did not do anything to serve their country or "fellow man" They ARE citizens irregardless of a piece of paper.

My opinion and you are welcome to disagree if you wish. I earned my citizenship and opinion.