Author Topic: Activist Declared Brain Dead  (Read 2998 times)

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #75 on: April 13, 2003, 05:20:08 PM »
Nash, we have been over this a hundred times.

You were talking about the "fourth Geneva convention". There is no such thing. There is a fourth protocol to the 1949 Geneva convention, though. There is a difference, at least to us lawyer types. But you know this already because I know I have told you about it in at least three different threads.

Anyway, I thought you were actually talking about the fourth geneva convention when you said fourth geneva convention...silly me huh? Instead you were talking about the fourth protocol to the geneva convention.

If you want to go back into the international law debate...go right ahead, there are several questions in those links I provided that you have forgotten to answer...
« Last Edit: April 13, 2003, 05:23:14 PM by Hortlund »

Offline Badger

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« Reply #76 on: April 13, 2003, 05:44:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
Or to ignore the published diaries of the Israeli leaders at the time. Read what Menachem Begin had to say about partition at the time, or what Ben Gurion had said about partition throughout the 30s.
 


Irrelevant to the discussion....

It took me a few posts, but now I do understand the game... ;)

You have several relatives on here and AGW... :D

Regards,
Badger

--------------------
Making up arguments that you believe people made, and then attacking those made up arguments is called a "straw man" argument. It is not really an argument, it is a form of masturbation. Like masturbation, it's best not done in public. --- Andrew Hedges

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #77 on: April 13, 2003, 06:06:41 PM »
Quote
You were talking about the "fourth Geneva convention". There is no such thing. There is a fourth protocol to the 1949 Geneva convention, though.


What number does the 1949 convention come on the list?

There are five conventions and protocols related to Geneva, they are (in chronological order):
Amelioration of the condition of the wounded on the field of battle
-from 1864
Geneva protocol for the prohibition of the use in war of asphyxiating gas, and for bacteriological methods of warfare
-from 1928
Convention between the United States of America and other powers, relating to prisoners of war
-from 1929
Geneva convention relative to the treatment of prisoners of war
-from 1949
Convention on the prohibition of the development, production and stockpiling of bacteriological and toxin weapons and their destruction
-from 1975

Fourth?

Regardless, it is called the fourth geneva convention by almost everybody. There is no country called Britain, it is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but if I say Britain, you know what I mean, don't you?

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Anyway, I thought you were actually talking about the fourth geneva convention when you said fourth geneva convention...silly me huh? Instead you were talking about the fourth protocol to the geneva convention.

That's how everybody refers to it. You claimed knowledge of international law, so I naturally assumed you too would have heard of it. Find a press release or speech where it is called something other than the Fourth Geneva Convention.

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If you want to go back into the international law debate...go right ahead, there are several questions in those links I provided that you have forgotten to answer...

Fire away.

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Irrelevant to the discussion....

The views and aims of the leaders of of one of the sides in a war are irrelevant to a discussion regarding the cause of a war?

Is that like saying Osama bin Laden's views are irrelevant to Sept 11th? and the war in Afghanistan? Or Hitlers views are irrelevant to the start of WW2?

If Ben Gurion, who led Israel, and the Jewish forces before the founding of Israel, says that he regards partition as a stepping stone to conquering the whole of Palestine, and then his forces go on to do exactly that, it's irrelevant?

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It took me a few posts, but now I do understand the game

What game? When I see someone posting something that is very biased, I usually post something in response, giving the alternative view. Anybody with little knowledge of the subject seeing your summation would come away with a rather incomplete picture.

Quote
You have several relatives on here and AGW

I don't think so, I come from a very small family ;)

Seriously Badger, you posted a very one sided summary of the history of Israel, I posted some opposing views.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2003, 06:09:44 PM by Nashwan »

Offline Badger

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« Reply #78 on: April 13, 2003, 06:47:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
What game? When I see someone posting something that is very biased, I usually post something in response, giving the alternative view. Anybody with little knowledge of the subject seeing your summation would come away with a rather incomplete picture.

Seriously Badger, you posted a very one sided summary of the history of Israel, I posted some opposing views.


No, you posted for the sake of posting and apparently argue for the sake of arguing .... perhaps it's some kind of narcissus complex, I don't know, but it's not my problem.  I gather from reading Hortlund's posts, you're also an expert on the Geneva convention and other international matters.  Are you related to Miko2d?

You sound like an academic that's spent one too many nights hanging out in the library and not enough time in the real world. ;)

What caused me to pause and realize it was purely a game with you and not really serious was the "straw man" approach.  That was your downfall and where you tipped you hand. :D

Good try though.... had me going for a while.   :D

Regards,
Badger


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Making up arguments that you believe people made, and then attacking those made up arguments is called a "straw man" argument. It is not really an argument, it is a form of masturbation. Like masturbation, it's best not done in public. --- Andrew Hedges

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #79 on: April 13, 2003, 06:59:47 PM »
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What caused me to pause and realize it was purely a game with you and not really serious was the "straw man" approach.

What straw man approach? Seriously, I can't see where I've "made up an argument that I believe you made, and then attacked it"

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I gather from reading Hortlund's posts, you're also an expert on the Geneva convention and other international matters.

No, it was Hortlund who was the expert, in fact he kept telling me he was an expert with almost every post.

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No, you posted for the sake of posting and apparently argue for the sake of arguing

I certainly like a good argument, but I don't post just for the sake of it.

Badger, do you really believe your first post on this thread gave a balanced view?

I make no pretence of balance in my own posts. I usually try to present about as balanced a view as the person I'm arguing with. In this case I presented the Palestinian case, because what you posted was purely the Israeli case.

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Are you related to Miko2d?

No, but I've argued with him in the past :D

To be serious again, look at when I registered, and how many posts I've made. I don't get in to these arguments very often.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2003, 07:03:01 PM by Nashwan »

Offline Badger

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« Reply #80 on: April 13, 2003, 07:07:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
I certainly like a good argument, but I don't post just for the sake of it.



You're not a stalker are you?  Or is it just a case of LPI or OCPD? :eek:

What color is white? ;)

Regards,
Badger

Congratulations... I've got more posts with you then I have with anyone else in 4 years on here. :D

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #81 on: April 13, 2003, 07:14:34 PM »
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You're not a stalker are you?

Hey, it was you who tried to trick me into phoning you ;)

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Or is it just a case of LPI or OCPD?

Sorry I don't know what LPI is, but a google search teels me OCPD is either an Orange County Public Defender or Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, and I am not suffering from either of those.

It's Sunday night, I'm bored, and I'm too lazy to get up and do something more interesting.

I'll be going soon, so if you wait ten mins or so you can post and get the last word in. As you seem to have backed off your earlier claims, I doubt I'll be posting here tomorrow.

Offline Badger

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« Reply #82 on: April 13, 2003, 07:30:34 PM »
Edit:  Back to the point, thanks to Thrawn.... less personalized, if that's possible based upon such volatile material .... ;)

Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
The factual innacuracy that I wanted to correct was

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At no time did the Jews uproot Arab families from their homes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[/b]

Well, I even gave you several contemporary quotes, not revisionist views of history ....  from several Arab newspapers and journalists who also feel that this is a valid statement.  However, you've minimized those indicating that they're too old or some other reasoning, IMHO simply because they don't fit your preconceived viewpoint of what you think personally.  I think this shows bias and not the objectivity you claim... no? :D

Now you've switched to Deir Yassin as a point to continue arguing, apparently about something you've indicated isn't that important enough for you to discuss face-to-face. ;)  So, what is your point?  You seem to know little about the actual content except to tell me to read diaries and autobiographies, which it doesn't sound like you've read yourself?  As I've said... I've spent 40 years reading and talking to real people on both sides about this conflict.  I apologize for being strident, but I do get a little short on patience when I see anonymous posters jump in professing intellectual expertise on virtually every topical subject that appears on these boards.  Not only that, but it's extremely misleading to real folks on here who actually might be interested in understanding the issues.

Since you insist on link referencing or book referrals to make your point, why not let people here read about Deir Yassin from two perspectives and make up their own minds. Although these two references are only a superficial look at a deeper question, they do give a flavor for the incident.  I have spoken to Arabs who were there who would also would find your statements uninformed. I'd be happy to introduce you to them for a telephone conference call so you can ask them what happened, if you'd like to do that.

Deir Yassin - Palestinian Viewpoint[/url]

The anti-Zionists often mention the phrase 'Deir Yassin' - why? What is it?[/url]

Regards,
Badger
« Last Edit: April 14, 2003, 06:48:34 AM by Badger »

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #83 on: April 14, 2003, 03:30:05 AM »
Badger, for one that claims to hold opinions based on "logic and fact" you appear to be ingnorant of ad hominim and appeal to redicule.  Your posts are nothing more than slighty veiled personal attacks.  

You don't argue the validity of the statements made.  And passing strange that the only documention you use to back your arguments is, incredibly, a cut-and-paste of someone elses work.

One wonders if you could find something better to do then sit on the side lines and insult people and redicule what they post.  But I'm on to you, you love the lights and music.  You don't have the intellectual courage to actually "get in the game".  But instead you like pass on pearls, feeling all go about your ideas, without actually risking your ideas in open debate.

Offline Badger

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« Reply #84 on: April 14, 2003, 05:49:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
Badger, for one that claims to hold opinions based on "logic and fact" you appear to be ingnorant of ad hominim and appeal to redicule.  Your posts are nothing more than slighty veiled personal attacks.  


Edit: My apologies Thrawn/Nashwan .... et al....

I have let the trivialization of an important issue I've spent forty years reading about and discussing with real people (some who were there on both sides) cause me to behave inappropriately, with both Nashwan and others.

Regards,
Badger
« Last Edit: April 14, 2003, 06:38:53 AM by Badger »

Offline gatt

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« Reply #85 on: April 14, 2003, 06:38:09 AM »
Actually, it is "ad hominem".
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline straffo

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« Reply #86 on: April 14, 2003, 06:45:36 AM »
"Add Eminem" would have been a worst spelling ...


don't bother with me I'm otw to my weekly



meeting :D

Offline Manedew

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« Reply #87 on: April 14, 2003, 08:56:47 AM »
Viva la France!

 and all the 'terrorists' that helped the allies liberate France in

WWII


Remember labeling something 'terrorist' (a nicely made up word from what ... terror bombing?).. remember, it's easy to label something ... but that doesn't make it so.  Was the french resistance terrorists?

Viva la Palestine?

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #88 on: April 14, 2003, 06:48:19 PM »
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Well, I even gave you several contemporary quotes, not revisionist views of history .... from several Arab newspapers and journalists who also feel that this is a valid statement. However, you've minimized those indicating that they're too old or some other reasoning, IMHO simply because they don't fit your preconceived viewpoint of what you think personally. I think this shows bias and not the objectivity you claim... no?


No, they are opinion, not fact. Note I didn't challenge your opinions, I just offered some alternative ones.

Those opinions shed some light on what happened, but they are not a comprehensive picture.

I am not denying Arabs fled, many without seeing any Israeli soldiers. I am sure they intended to return if the Arabs had won, but I am sure many intended to return if the Israelis won as well, as long as the fighting had finished.

Quote
Now you've switched to Deir Yassin as a point to continue arguing, apparently about something you've indicated isn't that important enough for you to discuss face-to-face.

It's not that the subject isn't important enough, it's that arguing one on one isn't important enough.

People rarely change strongly held views, and almost everything you've said indicates you have no intention of listening to an alternative argument.

Even your apology:

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I have let the trivialization of an important issue I've spent forty years reading about and discussing with real people (some who were there on both sides) cause me to behave inappropriately

suggests you have no interest in hearing an alternative view from me.

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So, what is your point? You seem to know little about the actual content except to tell me to read diaries and autobiographies, which it doesn't sound like you've read yourself?

Well, in your reading you never seem to have come across some of the quotes I gave, which were from the Arab case to the UN committee considering partition.

My point is that you gave a precis of the events, that placed blame solely on the Arabs. Most of that was opinion and half truths, but you made at least one claim that was simply wrong.

All I did was post an alternative view, and corrected that factual innacuracy. You then challenged me repeatedly, not on the arguments, which you refused to discuss, but my motives for making a single post.

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I have spoken to Arabs who were there who would also would find your statements uninformed. I'd be happy to introduce you to them for a telephone conference call so you can ask them what happened, if you'd like to do that.

What exactly are my statements on Deir Yassin? I didn't support or deny the massacre allegations, I merely pointed out a single instance where Arabs were forcibly removed from their land, after you had denied any such icidents took place.

Again, Badger, do you really believe your first post in this thread was a balanced account?

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #89 on: April 14, 2003, 11:27:37 PM »
How dare you guys hijack this thread?  Let's get back on track, making fun of idiot terrorist supporters.