Author Topic: SquadOps Sunday frame 1 - AARs (Read 1253 times)

ramzey · « **on:** April 13, 2003, 04:44:30 PM »

pls post it here;)

and TY guys for fly and "die" under my command

~~ramzey~~

Rompa · « **Reply #1 on:** April 14, 2003, 02:46:42 PM »

Even tho numbers were close (38 LW/35 VVS) the VVS totally smashed all LW flights and the LW tank squad saw no resistance?

Didnt VVS have any attack orders?

LW had about 17 guys in bombers and tigers but VVS mounted all there pilots in fighters, was it suppose to be like that?

And I also see that VVS was missing 1 squad with 8-12 pilots,If they will come in and play for the remaining frames and the same pattern will be followed (attack/defend) this SO will be no fun for the LW squads.

If only one side is too attack this side needs more pilots (maybe a 60/40 in attacker favor) not the opposite.

lucull · « **Reply #2 on:** April 14, 2003, 03:19:47 PM »

Orders told VVS to support tank battle in Leningrad area and defend it and A4. Next thing was that VVS had to expect Tigers.

VVS had nothing to kill or stop Tigers. Panzers can't do it and IL-2 the same.

1. Why feed the Tigers with easy targets?

2. This is flight sim and not CMBB

Well, sad for the Tigers that they only could kill buildings, but good for the VVS pilots which had not to drive GVs to be targets for 11 Tigers and could have fights in their planes against axis Luftwaffe.

I'm pleased with the event and I don't care about loosing Leningrad to 11 Tigers. On the other hand, VVS had enough planes in air left and 1 hour to strafe Tigers till none is left and axis couldn't do anything against it.

So, Axis destroyed Leningrad but all forces were lost including the Tigers (theoretically).

If you want, you can call it a Pyrrhos win for axis.

Dinger · « **Reply #3 on:** April 14, 2003, 03:28:11 PM »

well, I'll say this:
the axis had 10 people in tigers. the soviets did not have the option of choosing tigers, and thus didn't put anybody on the ground.
the soviets had the primary objective of defending leningrad from air attack. They achieved this.
The axis air attack was not particularly well timed. The high 109 sweep was on the early side -- we were able to engage and neutralize (if not destroy them), and get back in position/alt before the bombers arrived. The 190 sweep ahead of the bombers was too low to be effective, and the ju88s themselves were overloaded with bombs (wing bombs are overload, guys), and thus were still climbing out (=slow) at 9k when we interceived them. Guys, the 88's primary defense is speed, but you gotta level out.
Only after we neutralized the air threat did we go after the ground vehicles. This, by the way, is standard doctrine. the 1-hour "respawn window" for GVs only encouraged this. why spend all that effort to kill a tiger if it's only coming back? Anyway, it took the whole VVS a good half hour to kill 6 tigers.
308 was slated to be in mossies to hunt ju88s and then tigers, but the 9 GIAP put us in a bit of a bind -- all the other fighter squadrons had fixed assigns, and ramzey needed a group in close C&C to respond to developing threats. In the end, this probably helped the axis, since our La5s were not as effective against the ju88s -- we had to get in close, and two of us clipped our wingtips on the formations as we shot through, necessitating emergency landings).

I'm sorry that it was a bit of a walkover. Perhaps the axis should consider less people in tanks next week. GVs have _never_ been successfully used in a scenario, and I don't think any of the SO squads would prefer to be on the ground than in the air (AH just isn't a good armor game). and those might enjoy a GV battle don't want (A) the A/C to G/V ratio to be higher than 1:10 or (B) to face an equal force of tigers in pzIVs (with the engagement ranges of AH, that's about as fun as Spit I vs. Spit XIV.)

And yeah, I don't care how it's scored. IS was scored an axis victory too, yet how many frames ended with the Fariz being the only axis guy left in a plane at t+1hour?

Rompa · « **Reply #4 on:** April 14, 2003, 03:42:26 PM »

Im only concerned this event will be not so fun for everyone, if the above is true, with only LW attacking but outnumberd by VVS.

And then maybe LW numbers will drop of even more because I know I will not turn up for a event thats no fun.

U are right, the Tiger squad were too big, they shoud have been only 2-4, we needed them in the air, but thats up too the Country CO to decide.

Dinger · « **Reply #5 on:** April 14, 2003, 05:06:09 PM »

I see your point, and I agree: if the objectives are asymmetric (e.g., attack-defend), the attacking side needs considerably more units than the defender; otherwise, yeah, it's a cakewalk.
Note however that the "formation" option for level bombers helps to rectify this imbalance. There weren't 7 ju88s, but 21; so the initial numbers were something like 59-38 vehicles, which is pretty reasonable. What happened was:
A) Axis had 10-11 people in tanks. Aircraft beat tanks every time. If you have an objective that requires you to drive a tank somewhere, take the minimum tanks you can get away with, and use air power to kill enemy armor (or strafe buildings, whatever).

B) the Axis attack was not well coordinated. The Allied defense wasn't either, but it didn't matter as much. The 109s went in and engaged VVS fighters originally with alt advantage. They surrendered that advantage, and got shot down before the bombers were anywhere near the target. An attack like that is a "force divisor": the VVS put all its planes on one spot, and took down first the 109s (1/3 of the pilots), then the 190s/ju88s (another third), and finally the tanks (the last third). It was a massacre like a bad kung fu movie. If you're going to blow through a defense like that, you need to achieve local air superiority: send the 109s in and have them knock the fighters low. They don't have to shoot them down; they don't have to chase them low; all they have to do is send the enemy fighters to an altitude below that of the bombers. (incidentally, sunday the 109s did achieve this -- we were scattered and out of position NW of len. Unfortunately, the ju88s were still on climbout, and the 109s followed us down to where our a/c had the performance edge). Right as the sweep takes the fighters out of position, the bombers come in, at level out and full speed, wih an escort to chase away (not to kill) anyone who tries to make a run at the buffs.

It's tough. It requires discipline and timing and planning (both beforehand and on-the-fly). Defense is a little easier.

AndyH · « **Reply #6 on:** April 14, 2003, 05:33:51 PM »

We have destroyed 50 tanks today

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/

ramzey · « **Reply #7 on:** April 14, 2003, 06:15:08 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AndyH
We have destroyed 50 tanks today

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/

explain pls

sling322 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 14, 2003, 06:55:29 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dinger
[B Defense is a little easier. [/B]

Especially when the CO ignores the orders from the CM and puts all his side in fighters.

The Admin CM for SO's dont hand out planesets and objectives just for the hell of it. By ignoring the objectives given out by the Admin CM, you basically doomed one squad on the opposing side to no action at all.

There is a reason why you are given targets to attack and targets to defend. This reason is that any targets you are scheduled to defend are targets that the other side is attacking and vice versa. Why dont we just save everybody some time in the future and just set the SEA to MA settings and let you furball for 2 hours? I am sure that Mister Fork appreciates you wasting his time. Almost as much as the LW squad who didnt have anybody opposing their ground vehicles appreciates you wasting their time as well.

funkedup · « **Reply #9 on:** April 14, 2003, 07:32:12 PM »

Sling with all respect:
1. You should take this up privately with the side CO if there is a problem. Whining in an open forum is bad form, and just leads to flamings like the one I am about to lay on you.
2. You said: "By ignoring the objectives given out by the Admin CM, you basically doomed one squad on the opposing side to no action at all." I read the orders that were given to Ramzey. There was no specific requirement for the Allies to field GVs. If you are going to accuse people of foul play, make sure you know the facts of the situation.
3. If you CMs really want to cut down on people wasting their time, you should stop using AH's piss poor ground war model in supposedly historical scenarios.

-ammo- · « **Reply #10 on:** April 14, 2003, 07:52:33 PM »

we had squad ops last sunday?

Mister Fork · « **Reply #11 on:** April 14, 2003, 08:07:02 PM »

(cough) I thank you all for your comments on the subject at hand but lets not get out of the real debate here.

I'm accepting all responsibility for this past Sunday but make no doubt, THIS SUNDAY will be correct with clearer orders for the CO's to make it an enjoyable event for all...

Next weeks orders are coming soon and I'd like everyone to take time to think about how they'd like to improve Squad Ops, not point out the bad points. I need constructive feedback.

If you have an idea or suggestions, email them to me at mr.fork@shaw.ca.

ramzey · « **Reply #12 on:** April 14, 2003, 08:40:35 PM »

With whole respect but u are put heavy words on my head.
Yes i was Frame CO and i take responsibility for my side at this frame.

Quote

Originally posted by sling322
Especially when the CO ignores the orders from the CM and puts all his side in fighters.

i dont wont to say u are lier, but chek before u post not true
Since when Mosquito armed with 2000lbs bombs is a "fighter"?
Was only one? yes, but he was used

When i ignore orders from CM?

Quote

Originally posted by MR.Fork
Your Orders:
Primary: Defend Leningrad from Air Attack.
Secondary: Support the tanks at the battle south of Suvlajarvi (V74).

I dont know what mean in your language "support", but my dictionary explain this as HELP. Not to PLAY.

Quote

Originally posted by sling322
The Admin CM for SO's dont hand out planesets and objectives just for the hell of it. By ignoring the objectives given out by the Admin CM, you basically doomed one squad on the opposing side to no action at all.

Frame CO have free hand how he use his forces, and what plane he use from available. So i decide not use tanks. Why?
I chk both spown points from a 74 and a4. Armoured forces from a74 was less then 30 s way from fire position in to spowned tanks from a4. As everybody know Tiger have much more longer fire range than panzer4. Trees not give cover against shels. Panzer 4 need to drive about 5 minutes to be in effectiv fire range to damage Tiger. Pls chk how many rounds can fire Tiger at this time. And imagine how many panzers i should use to broke tigers defence. 50? 100?
Axis CO can chose which gv's he use. He not use any antiaircraft vehicycle and panzer4. Why? GA know, any of weapon we have can't stop Tigers.
So better for me to read axis whiners about not seen action, then read VVS troops about "we have no chance" or "SOps are waste of time"

Quote

Originally posted by MR.Fork
The #'s of each aircraft/tank is up to you. You could up your entire force
in tanks and AAA but you would be sitting ducks to air attack or you can mix
and match how you see fit. Remember, you're the CO, and how you use your
resources is up to you as long as you complete your objectives.

Quote

Originally posted by sling322
There is a reason why you are given targets to attack and targets to defend. This reason is that any targets you are scheduled to defend are targets that the other side is attacking and vice versa. Why dont we just save everybody some time in the future and just set the SEA to MA settings and let you furball for 2 hours? I am sure that Mister Fork appreciates you wasting his time. Almost as much as the LW squad who didnt have anybody opposing their ground vehicles appreciates you wasting their time as well.

Primary i care about my troops, i not waste them for nothing.

All squadrons under my command fulfull his duty very well.
Even if som mess in orders was by my foult. Axis lost all air forces. Noone bomb was drop close to leningrad. Oposite forces abdon his tanks in ruined town.

Mr. Fork give me clear orders, and i follow them.
If somone expect i drop my troops in to the bettle whichoe not give them chance to survive, make mistake.
If u think im a fool and newbie in commanding u think wrong.
I dont know where u saw furball, and how looks your definition f this term.
Looking for MA example , furbal u can seewhen forces from 2 hostile airfield fight each other . And all the time reinforcments inbound from this fields.
When in air , during SOps or any one life event, start fighting 2 or more squadrons u can name it AIR BATTLE, but never furball. Update dictionary pls

Im sorry, I thought, i play to win this frame, not to give others turkey tiger shotout chempionship. Suprised?

Now U shows up with a can of gasoline again.

Looks like U are incompetent and arrogant.

with respect
ramzey

sling322 · « **Reply #13 on:** April 14, 2003, 08:42:09 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by funkedup
There was no specific requirement for the Allies to field GVs.

Yeah...and I guess we all just fell off the turnip truck yesterday and have never played in a TOD frame before, right?

C'mon FunkedUp....you're smarter than that and I believe the rest of your squad is as well.

ghostdancer · « **Reply #14 on:** April 14, 2003, 09:36:20 PM »

Okay, enough. I am having Mister Fork send me the orders for both sides that he sent to both CiCs. I will also read the write up.

Please not this is the second Squad Ops in a row where a CiC did not bring up what they were thought issues before the actually frame. Please note that all CiCs need to bring up issues when they get the orders.

If this issue was brought up before the actual frame day then Mister Fork could have checked with the LW and dealt with it. One possible solution would have been for him to scrap the GVs for both sides altogether. Or, if the orders were not clear in what he originally sent, he could have clarified them further.