Author Topic: Could someone rethink the way porking fuel works?  (Read 1298 times)

Offline Urchin

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Could someone rethink the way porking fuel works?
« on: April 14, 2003, 08:53:02 PM »
I know a lot of people get off on trying to keep other people from having fun.  It is human nature, perfectly understandable.  But when every single base along a border is fuel and supply porked, it gets old.  People log off.  One person has fun, sure- he's probably creaming his pants as he takes off again and again and again and again and again until he finally porks EVERY field, but many many more people get pissed off and stop playing.  If this happens often enough, people start cancelling.  

Please rethink the way fuel is distributed.

Offline SirLoin

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Could someone rethink the way porking fuel works?
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2003, 08:58:55 PM »
Fly a resupply goon Urchin.
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Offline Kweassa

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Could someone rethink the way porking fuel works?
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2003, 09:24:22 PM »
No matter how it is 'redone', as long as people sneer at the thought of having to up goons actively and take the time to resupp something, the fuels are always gonna stay porked.

 Come to think of it, Trinity is currently the only map with a scale and strat system that even remotely has the possibility of bringing on 'real life situations' in the chaotic MA battlegrounds, no? Destroying fuel capabilities and preventing the enemies from attacking in humongous numbers, is the single most effective tactical move a defending country can take.

 Think it in the aspect of logistics - if there are only hotshot fighter pilots around, and nobody to bring in supps to fuel them, it is pretty obvious they're not going to be able to fly for long. Destroying the logistics line is the basics of military tactics.

 ....

 Sirloin's right, participate in resupp gooning, Urch. It may take as many as 12~14 goons to reup a base with its strats honked. The more a certain side has people willing to actively participate in resupping, the better that side in its logistics capabilities - thus, better chance to keep the attack going.

Offline Batz

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Could someone rethink the way porking fuel works?
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2003, 10:17:18 PM »
I agree with Urchin and its one of the reasons I rarely fly. I like early birds, ones that already have limited fuel especially on the big maps.

They suicide fuel porker is much like the old "fluffers" before the new bombsite. Back then they would kill the fhs and ruin the fun. Now they just pork all the fuel in suicide runs.

You can as many fuel tanks to a field as you want. I say oput about 30 of umm at a large field. 20 at a med field and 10 at a small field. Put revetments around umm so it takes a direct hit to kill um, then up their hardness.

I have seen pic of German and Italian airfields where they laid 50 gal barrels on their side in rows. Each row was seperated and the whole thing was covered with a camo net. From the air it looked like a graded or plowed field.

I believe the us did this as well.

I never could understand the guy that looks at the map sees a good fight going on between 2 bases, where lotsa folks are having fun, then thinks to himself. "I can have that......." and goes on his pork and auger raids.

Offline moot

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Could someone rethink the way porking fuel works?
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2003, 10:25:04 PM »
it's the same to them, to win by air to air fights or "outsmart" the other guy and KO him in the fuel nads.

Then those guys' gripe is that the furball guys are madly vulching the runways while they are alone circling town asking for the last building to be dropped or asking for a goon to come sneak the town they shaved behind the lines.
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Offline Kweassa

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Could someone rethink the way porking fuel works?
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2003, 11:13:52 PM »
You have a point there Batz, and it is sometimes an irony to me as well. Since there is no concept of 'attrition' in the MA, the limitations in fuel capacity is rigged to the field in crude percentage per building left standing that represent the resource. Destroy one or two barrels of oil and suddenly the field is knocked out woppin' 25% of its total fuel capacity. Also, since the field is unlimited in numbers of planes, people can literally throw away unlimited amount of planes in a suicidal attack, until the job gets done.

 Thus, the very reason behind hard training - limited life and limited equipment - is lost, and a job which in real life took careful planning and execution, can just be done with sheer numbers of planes upping in unending suicide runs.

 However, in the broader aspect, that is a problem with overall funkiness in strat concept of the MA, rather than a single problem concerning how fuel reserves are implemented in the game. As it is, I don't think there's any other option than people to actively participate in resupplying attempts - frequent enough to quickly rebuild what has been lost.

 If something in the strat system has to be changed, it can't just be the fuels.. it literally has to be everything - all or nothing! ;)

Offline Bullethead

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Could someone rethink the way porking fuel works?
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2003, 11:39:56 PM »
The root cause of field-porking is the whole arena reset system, combined with the perk system.  Countries try to reset each other, which means a good run of perk gain in process and a larger award upon victory.  To get the reset, you have to capture fields, and to capture a given field you usually have to pork the adjacent nme fields so they can't provide defending reinforcements.  This means 3-4 fields get porked for every field under actual assault.  Thus, the natural result of the whole arena reset/perk system is field-porking on a massive scale.

It seems to me that it's impossible to separate field-porking and resets.  I doubt there'd be much, if any, movement of the front lines without the ability to pork fields.  And what movement did occur would be due solely to one side massing utterly overwhelming force to just overrun the defenders.  No strategy, just brute force, like in DOS AW.

So, the real question as I see it is, are you so annoyed by field-porking that you'd sacrifice the whole reset system to be rid of it?  Do you like resets better than the old DOS AW system of fixed country fields and just a few capturable fields in the center of the map, and no strat system to speak of? (strat didn't work at all, and thus there was no porking, in the DOS RT arena for most of its existence).

I doubt many would choose to go back to the old DOS AW arena rules.  Always the same thing, everybody in the arena fighting over the same couple of fields all night and little or no changes of possession.  It was fun when that was all there was, but times have definitely changed.

So, looks like we're stuck with field-porking in AH.  That being the case, can it be improved in either cause or effect?  We can dispose of the effects issue easily because there are only 2 real options.  The porkage can either limit the missions a plane can perform (due to shorter range, no bombs, no troops) or can lower the performance of planes.  AH does the former, AW did the latter.  AW's system utterly sucked, so AH has got it right on this score.  That leaves the causes of porkage as the only area open for possible improvement.

There's a lot of whining about kamikaze porkdweebs, in all their forms from divebombers who don't pull out to unescorted B17s coming over at 300' AGL.  How big a problem this really is, compared to the number of legit pilots, is open to debate.  But for purposes of debate, let's assume that it's a big problem.  Kamikaze porking is, after all, the most efficient porking method under the arena rules.  The faster you die after doing your damage, the quicker you can get back up and do more damage, so your side advances to the reset faster.

The big problem with combating the kamikaze porkdweeb problem, assuming it's big enough to really worry about, is that kamikazes use the same game mechanics as legit players.  How can the game know what type of player dropped a given bomb?  And it has to be able to tell this, because prophylactic measures can't be applied here.  If you make the targets harder, or shorten their downtime, or whatever, you make it that much harder for legit players to pork fields, which in turn makes it less likely that fields get captured, leading to a more static front line and no real arena-wide goals to achieve.

So, how can the game tell if the bomb was dropped by a kamikaze?  IMHO, it can't look at any given case in isolation but has to look for trends over a number of sorties.  Simple reason for this.  The guy we want to punish is the type who takes off with the intention of doing a kamikaze attack, and who does this on a regular basis.  But everybody who takes off with the intention of making a legit attack sometimes finds themselves on a suicide run, due to bad intel or changes in the situation while they were en route, or just being the 1st guy into the ack at a cherry field.  To the defenders, both guys look like intentional kamikazes, but one of them will do it again next hop while the other won't.  Any anti-kamikaze system must be able to tell the difference.

This all means that HTC will have to decide on a number of parameters and track them for all pilots over several sorties.  Assuming this is possible without bogging down the server, it still won't be perfect.  Legit guys with a run of bad luck would get caught by it on occasion.  And in the meantime, the real kamikazes will know that they have a couple of freebies before the system cracks down on them, so there won't be that much of a decrease in intentional kamikaze attacks on the average.

So at the bottom line, I don't think there's much hope of ever getting a system that automatically weeds out all intentional kamikaze porkdweebs.  That being the case, I guess the best defense is for us to keep notes on the porkdweebs ourselves and report them to HTC.

Offline JB73

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Could someone rethink the way porking fuel works?
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2003, 03:01:14 AM »
the only prob i have is the whole fuel burn of the planes is......

NOT AN LW whine!!!! but there is no LW plane that can be effective with 25% fuel... yet almost all allied planes can go sectors on 25%.

for our squad (being LW only) we cant up at a base with 25% this makes us unable to help in time to defend some bases.

its a bummer to see somone call out for help @ a base and we have to fly in from more then a sector away.

oh well my 2¢
I don't know what to put here yet.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Could someone rethink the way porking fuel works?
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2003, 03:36:21 AM »
The problem isnt fuel burn rte but fuel tank capacity.

If the point is to reduce fuel to 25% as a means to show damage to fuel supply and indicate a limited quantity available then I think we should rethink how it is done.

For example 25% fuel on a P51D is a hell of alot more fuel in gallons/liters than 25% fuel in Bf109 or Yak9.  So when fuel supplies are reduced the planes with huge gastanks get an automatic advantage for no reason except that they have large fuel capacity. This does not refelect the shortage of gas.

I think we should not have the straight 25% of a full tank rule but something that actually reflects a shortage of available fuel.

Offline bozon

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Could someone rethink the way porking fuel works?
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2003, 04:03:45 AM »
I like batz idea:
put more fuel tanks on the fiels.
a tiffykaza can't usually get more then 2 tanks on one run, and if you have over 10 tanks on a small field it means more then 5 augers - quite some time for a single kamizazi.

having lots of fuel tanks laying around will also give carpet bombing the base a better effect.

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Offline beet1e

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Field Porkage
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2003, 04:37:52 AM »
An interesting thread. I think that fuel porkage is only one element of the total pork equation. I think we are all agreed on that. The real difficulty is the kamikaze nature of any such attack, and the immediate re-uppage of the pilot responsible, who can then return to the scene with inside knowledge of its status.

Fuel porking is just one type of kamikaze flight of fancy. My personal pet hate is the suicide runs to the CV - buff formations at 300'. Of course, those are great for scoring points and earning perks if you're up off the CV in a F4U-1C. There are also the divebombers. I once saw 5xP47 dive on the CV. Only one landed a hit, and all died except one who escaped with a smoking engine. Pure unadulterated dweebery and bulltoejam.

As Kweassa points out, the strat has to be on an all or nothing basis. It's an enormous nut to crack, and goes a long way to explain the rumours that AH2 won't be ready until Q3 of this year. I shudder to think of all the BBS whining we're going to see after its introduction.

But I am optimistic. And here is why. Remember how, in 1.10 (or was it 1.09) that whenever you got a kill, a message came up, eg. "Victory 1 by Beet1e  of No.9 Squadron". The issue of those messages was discontinued. Then, you got a message only if you landed at least 2 kills. Most of those messages had been Victory 1 messages, some Victory 2, or even much higher for the vulchers. For about the first week, I saw very few messages of 2 or more kills being landed. Many people were still in their old ways of fighting to the last ammo round, then augering in a blaze of glory. The transit time back to base would impinge on the cherished but oh-so-gamey stat of k/t, so they were happy to simply re-up a new plane. But when they saw guys landing 2,4,6 kills or more, they wanted a piece of that action, and became more careful and started landing kills.

And my point? Many players can be motivated by the scoring system, and the score board itself. A guy likes to see his name come up with 6 kills landed. A guy likes to be in a good position on the scoreboard - hence all the BBS whining when the scoreboard pages are not available. Well, AH2 is going to revolutionise the way we get scores. The precise details are secret, but I think we all know that there will be specific missions, which must be LANDED in order for your efforts to be credited to your scoreboard stats. The suicidal fuel porkage dweebs will score zero points. The 300' LANC pilots ib to the CV will score zero points. The P47/P38/110 kamikaze-the-CV pilots will score zero points. And best of all, they won't simply be able to re-up in their erstwhile "rinse-and-repeat" mode. They'll have to wait for the next mission.

Yes, kamikaze fuel porkage is just one symptom of a general malaise we are currently seeing in the game. But rather than treating the symptoms, HTC is working on a brand new multiple vaccine, and AH2 will be the cure.

Offline F6Bomber

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Could someone rethink the way porking fuel works?
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2003, 04:46:55 AM »
You all dont seem to relize the main facts about this argument about fuel and such.

Firstly, you are given a field with an infinite fuel comsumption and also ammo cunsumption. You are given a field that you can take off when the fuel porker appears. You are given a field with radar, ack and mostly everthinkelse.

Just because sombody lurnches an attack on your field doesnt mean you cannot defend against it!. If you want to defend grab a la7 head to 20K feet and sit there waiting for the Typoon who is going to hit your fuel.

Until then, stop complaining because you'r to slack to get off your bellybutton and do somthink about the situation instead of complaining!

Now some may write in saying that its allmost impossible to stop a person in a typoon from getting the fuel at your base. Read above, grab an la7 and sit there!

You do not need to add more fuel tanks at a field, you need to teach the players how to defend them.

Offline BNM

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Could someone rethink the way porking fuel works?
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2003, 05:49:42 AM »
Let's see, so far our choices are:

A) Fly a resupply goon
B) Fly a La7 to 20k and sit there

Man it just don't get any more fun than that...... NOT!

IMHO strat should be kept more seperate. Make it where if ALL the fuel is porked at a field (ea. fuel should take 2k eggs to kill) then fuel is reduced to 75%. That way it will take alot of effort for little effect. If you take out all the fuel at the refinery then it should take 1 hr instead of 30 mins for the field to return to 125%.

Offline Tilt

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Could someone rethink the way porking fuel works?
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2003, 07:32:45 AM »
I think Grunherz and Batz have it...............

Multiply and scatter the fuel targets by a very significant factor that make multiple level bombings a must for significant fuel attrition.

As fuel suffers share out the fuel by gallons/litres per AC.

If 125% field fuel = 500 galsper ac then 25% field fuel = 100 gals per ac, not 25% of what ever your nominal tank capacity is.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2003, 07:34:48 AM by Tilt »
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Offline gofaster

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Could someone rethink the way porking fuel works?
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2003, 07:51:16 AM »
You guys are missing another reason for porking front line fuel capacity:

to limit the number of LA-7s, Yak9Us, Spitfires, and N1K2s.

Other planes have the capacity to cross 2 sectors, engage in a fight, and return home.

P-51B and P-51D with wing tanks from secondary field.

P-38 with wing tanks from secondary field.

P47 with wing tanks from secondary field.

F4U with wing tanks from secondary field or carrier.

F6F with wing tanks from secondary field or carrier.

Or, if you have a tv next to your computer and want to catch a new episode of "Wings": FM2 with wing tanks, or A6M2 and A6M5 with belly tanks from secondary field or carrier, (but you better bring friends if you want to get out of there alive).

My use of the Mustang is directly proportional to the distance I have to go to find a fight - usually a result of porked fuel levels or an expanding battle front.  On the other hand, my use of the F4UD is directly proportional to the distance I'll probably have to fly to hit an enemy air base or town because my front-line field is either capped or porked.

Or take a GV, which isn't fuel-level dependent.