Author Topic: Comparison: Berlin 1989 vs Baghdad 2003 (Read 2531 times)

Preon1 · « **on:** April 15, 2003, 10:02:04 AM »

Last week, when asked about the looting going on in Baghdad, Sec Rumsfeld replied that it was an expected thing for a repressed people to do when it has been freed from a repressive government. He then compared it to the fall of the Berlin Wall. It turns out that a lot of Germans are really pissed at this. Maybe my history is wrong, but I think the differences are forgivable:

Iraqis died in a war from an outside aggressor
East Germans died trying to cross the no-man zone

Iraqi resistance left the country to avoid the murder of themselves, their friends, and families.
East Germans weren't allowed to leave so the pressure increased.

The United States applied direct pressure that toppled the Saddam regime.
The United States applied direct pressure to keep West Berlin alive, allowing the East Berlin pressure to increase.

The Germans can be proud that there wasn't a war to liberate them. It's a good thing too, because such a war would have been MUCH more devastating than Operation Iraqi Freedom. But I don't think they have much to be pissed about here.

(attached is a link to the chinadaily that brings up the topic)
Germans dismiss Rumsfeld's Berlin-Baghdad comparison

Dowding · « **Reply #1 on:** April 15, 2003, 10:03:52 AM »

It sounds like there is virtually no comparison. I don't remember much looting either.

Mini D · « **Reply #2 on:** April 15, 2003, 10:07:56 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dowding
It sounds like there is virtually no comparison. I don't remember much looting either.

Right... the buildings in East Germany emptied themselves.

MiniD

Dowding · « **Reply #3 on:** April 15, 2003, 10:11:10 AM »

They were robbing super-markets and private shops, and armed gangs were roaming the streets? Nope, don't remember any of that. But I was only 10 years old.

Mini D · « **Reply #4 on:** April 15, 2003, 10:16:16 AM »

No, they were locked in their houses as the Russian soldiers did the looting. I do find your reference to "supermarkets" quite funny.

Don't look blindly at history in hopes of proving a point dowding.

MiniD

Frogm4n · « **Reply #5 on:** April 15, 2003, 10:20:58 AM »

the germans brought the walls down themselves. but we did economically strangled the USSR. Plus most western societys will not fire on unarmed civilians and the people of germany knew that. then in iraq ,of course if you look at the air shots of the square that statue was brought down in, for a city of 5million, a couple hundred people takeing down a statue didnt look like the massive amounts of people takeing down the wall. It seems most people just stayed in their homes. Im sure they are glad to be rid of him, but i think most iraqis are cowards. except the kurds in the north who have been fighting for a damn long time.

AKIron · « **Reply #6 on:** April 15, 2003, 10:21:14 AM »

There were significant differences of course. The government and police force in East Germany didn't cease to exist like they have in Iraq (for a short period).

The similarity is in the end of fear and repression for both peoples. No surprise the Germans have so soon forgotten the sacrifce made by Americans to make it possible. If we did it only to gain respect and admiration we woulda stopped a long time ago.

Dowding · « **Reply #7 on:** April 15, 2003, 10:23:30 AM »

Aaagh, so the Russians, an occupying force for all intents and purposes, did the looting before withdrawing.

Compare that with Iraq, where a people recently liberated from a dictator looted their own hospitals, private houses and shops.

How many East German hospitals were stripped of equipment and supplies? How many East German doctors had to walk the corridors with stethoscope and AK-47 in hand?

Enlighten me, please.

Frogm4n · « **Reply #8 on:** April 15, 2003, 10:24:30 AM »

what did america sacrifice in driving the USSR into economic crap house faster then it naturally would have? The millions of jobs our defence contractors gave out? or was it the massive government spending?
of course there were some spys caught and i guess those are the few that did something that was actually dangerous.

X2Lee · « **Reply #9 on:** April 15, 2003, 10:24:38 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dowding
It sounds like there is virtually no comparison. I don't remember much looting either.

\
America screwed the pooch on the looting of the museums.
I hope the Iraqis realize how important that stuff is to thier/our cultures and beginnings. America/Iraq should offer
moneys/barter to buy these things back from the people and
let them know there will be no retributions for the return of stuff.

Maybe they can get back some of these priceless treasures

Mini D · « **Reply #10 on:** April 15, 2003, 10:25:51 AM »

LOL! Wait dowding...

Are you refering to the looting that occured when the East Germans were "liberated"?

LOL! Sorry, I thought you were refering to when they were occupied.

Of course, there was nothing left to loot because anything of real value had been removed from the country entirely.

I wonder what would have happened if, when the Russians pulled out, they'd left palaces and offices lavishly decorated and massively stocked with supplies. Actually, I don't wonder... I know.

MiniD

Dowding · « **Reply #11 on:** April 15, 2003, 10:29:44 AM »

Keep laughing. I guess it helps you avoid answering the questions I posed.

Forget about the palaces and offices. What about the hospitals? What about the private homes and shops? Were they looted in East Germany?

Or will we just have to conclude that the fall of the Soviet East Germany was really nothing like the fall of Baghdad...

X2Lee · « **Reply #12 on:** April 15, 2003, 10:30:10 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dowding
and armed gangs were roaming the streets? Nope, don't remember

I doubt there are many iraqis that dont carry a gun or know where they can get thier hand on one real fastlike.

AKIron · « **Reply #13 on:** April 15, 2003, 10:33:25 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Frogm4n
what did america sacrifice in driving the USSR into economic crap house faster then it naturally would have? The millions of jobs our defence contractors gave out? or was it the massive government spending?
of course there were some spys caught and i guess those are the few that did something that was actually dangerous.

How about the hundreds of thousands of US troops that lived much of their lives away from their families in defense of Europe. Ready to give even their lives if necessary.

Maybe you don't consider this sacrifice. Do you even have a clue what that word means?

X2Lee · « **Reply #14 on:** April 15, 2003, 10:34:50 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dowding

Or will we just have to conclude that the fall of the Soviet East Germany was really nothing like the fall of Baghdad...

Except it had the exact same effect on the populace. Freedom.