Does people just want to pick on me? time to talk.

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Maverick:
Fishu,

 Your problem isn't people whining about you. It is you. You told me in a post you are a student and can't afford to pay to play. Then act like a good student and spend time listening instead of talking. You speak of things you do not have direct experiance with and try to tell those who DO have experiance, (even a career in the subject) that they are wrong. You need to sit back and leave the BBS posting alone for a bit.

You don't play the SIM, you have no real business criticising it if you don't use it. You sure don't have any business criticising others who have experiance in the subjects they are posting about.  

Mav

Sometimes it is hard to listen when your counterpart does not listen you and you just keep trying to get him listen.
Most of my long posts which many counts as whine, are just efforts to make people understand my meaning.
..what more replies there comes, well, then I must admit that it looks more like worthless whining after all that BS with irrelevant topics between there.

When I did play for few days 1.03, I did play it very much per day during the period and I am alot up for testing things when I do.
I get bored if I can't test things out...
Alot like hackers who are mostly just curious and tests things etc., though, I am not hacker and I don't know anything about hacking.. but those people are curious like me.

Maybe its just that I talk alot and makes it look like i critize alot?  
Usually those critics are more visible than good stuff... (like murder vs. saved wale, get the point?)

I speak about that what I am somewhat certain and what goes against that what I've read.
I read alot of World War 2, and I have done so for very many years. (IMO its very intresting)

and I might well be heading for military career, at least almost certainly going to army. (Finlands constitution..)

But then, who in AH really has experience with World War 2? I doubt theres many.

I critize if I have sufficient experience of the subject under main arena conditions, or otherwise very visible flaw that would be most certainly fixed later or sooner even without me.
Give me source where Pz-IVh gets killed through front plate by 20mm cannon from distance of +400 yards, for example. (I have done this under main arena conditions often)

Then another thing, when I am paying, what will you do then?
I really doubt that paying really has something to do with this.

I heard recently that there reads in mein kampf that he who yells louder and tells more roadkill, wins.. (I have not verified this though, one guy said that on one chat to a guy who had that quote in his web page)
Anyhow, that seems very true in this UBB.

[Fishu]

ops wrong thread

[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 08-01-2000).]

[Maverick]

---------------------------------------------
>>When I did play for few days 1.03, I did play it very much per day during the period and I am alot up for testing things when I do.
I get bored if I can't test things out...
Alot like hackers who are mostly just curious and tests things etc., though, I am not hacker and I don't know anything about hacking.. but those people are curious like me.<<
--------------------------------------------

Hackers are not necesarily curious. They can be, and often are, malicious people not intent on "finding things out" but causing problems for others. In short, vandals.

---------------------------------------------
>>Maybe its just that I talk alot and makes it look like i critize alot?    
Usually those critics are more visible than good stuff... (like murder vs. saved wale, get the point?)<<
_____________________________ ________________

You do talk a lot, often trying to speak with a tone of being an expert in areas you have no definitive experiance with. The pay and play angle comes in here. You do not support or use the SIM so your comments about it already have a validity problem. Outside criticism about a product you do not use has far less value, is any, than constructive comments from a person who uses the product and wants to see it improved. in other words, you have no "interest or stake" in it.

_____________________________ ________________
>>I speak about that what I am somewhat certain and what goes against that what I've read.
I read alot of World War 2, and I have done so for very many years. (IMO its very intresting)<<
_____________________________ ________________

History IS interesting. Some of us lived through a good portion of that history and have a first person perspective. This doesn't mean it is all about WW2. There is a lot of history outside of WW2 for the military and aviation. Those of us who have had direct military experiance know a bit more than what you find in the history books. Several of us in this SIM have classified knowledge and can speak far more authoritatively than one who merely reads history from general references.
_____________________________ ________________

>>and I might well be heading for military career, at least almost certainly going to army. (Finlands constitution..)<<
_____________________________ ________________

Good for you. That will help you build your "personal" knowledge base and help with character biulding as well. If you enjoy the benefits of liberty you should be prepared to help defend and protect it.
_____________________________ ________________

>>But then, who in AH really has experience with World War 2? I doubt theres many.<<  

_____________________________ ________________

Some of us had parents in the war. Quite a few of us studied the material not from an interest point of view but from a professional point of view. There are many lessons from prior conflicts that do not appear in general history books. Quite a bit of information is available to military references only and contain material not available to civilian sources. Military libraries aren't quite the same as civilian ones. Some of us had to learn the material and then teach it in military graduate level courses such as Command and General Staff College and the Air Force equivalent.  

There are still veterans of the war alive and they are available for consultation. I know a couple myself personally who flew in WW2. I currently work for a fighter pilot in my civilian job. He has flown F16's and now A10's. There is even a flying P51 at the airport where I work and I have met and talked to the owner.

_____________________________ ________________
>>I critize if I have sufficient experience of the subject under main arena conditions, or otherwise very visible flaw that would be most certainly fixed later or sooner even without me.<<
_____________________________ ________________

If you are not in the main arena gaining personal experiance, you have no direct knowledge of any "flaws".

_____________________________ ________________

>>Then another thing, when I am paying, what will you do then?
I really doubt that paying really has something to do with this.<<
_____________________________ ________________

It has everything to do with your criticism of the game. If you are not playing it with the rest of us, you have no direct personal knowledge of any problems. In other words again, you have no expertise in a product you do not use. If you start to play online then others know you are speaking from a position of knowledge, not supposition and inferance. The rest of us will be there to interact with you and let you learn the game by flying and dieing online as we do.
_____________________________ ________________

>>I heard recently that there reads in mein kampf that he who yells louder and tells more roadkill, wins.. (I have not verified this though, one guy said that on one chat to a guy who had that quote in his web page)
Anyhow, that seems very true in this UBB.[/B][/QUOTE]<<
_____________________________ ________________

There is a cogent observation. You seem to be coming from this very direction. Stop yelling about something you do not do / use. Stop claiming superior knowledge and expertise, particularly when dealing with those who were or are in the profession of arms for real. If you do not fly or have experiance with the weapons don't profess to be an expert. There is book knowledge and then there is real world experiance. Sometimes the two don't match.

If you do not play the game you are certainly not an expert in it. I't's almost the same as walking up to a chess master and telling them how to play chess since you read a book about it and have played a couple of games.

Now this was about as plain and constructive I can be about this. You started the thread and asked for the information. I hope you take it as constructive information as that is the way it was meant. If I had just wanted to flame you it would have been much shorter and certainly more "earthy".

Mav

[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 08-01-2000).]

[Hangtime]

 

[Kieren]

I honestly believe about 90% of the conflicts that happen online occur because of misunderstandings- this is why it is always safer to assume the best intent in everyone.

Fishu, I don't think you intend to be irritating- at least I've never taken you that way. I do think you are opinionated (which is ok, so am I and about everyone I know!).

There is a language barrier I believe you struggle through, and what is probably a more telling point, a cultural one as well. As far as I know Finnish is your native language. You speak pretty good English, so people tend to forget you are not native to the language. More, there are subtle nuances to any culture- more like social taboos- and inevitably you cross them occasionally. That is entirely understandable and forgiveable.

The way you read sometimes is that your opinion matters more than others, and they are foolish to disagree. That may surprise you, but that is the way you translate to a native speaker. Again, your technical use of the language is fluent, and this fools people; they don't understand what I assume is a misunderstanding on your part of the tone of your messages. You yourself have many times commented you can't believe someone didn't get the joke. The fact is, they probably didn't.

The thing I like about your posting (and anyone else who's opinion occasionally differs from mine) is that it challenges me to rethink my position on any given topic. If one really wants to be objective, one has to be willing to change their mind if evidence suggests the need.

Always remember that, if many people contest your point-of-view, the very least you should do is re-examine it yourself. They just might be seeing something you missed. If people are responding negatively to you, ask yourself, honestly, "Why?". If you see anything that causes you to be flamed, decide if you control it or not. Make the change or get used to the fire. This isn't to suggest not sticking to a valid viewpoint, only that one must leave room for the possibility that occasionally anyone can be wrong.  

[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 08-01-2000).]

[Fishu]

Maverick,

You don't have idea of that how much experience I get in few days of play if I am up for testing couple things.
and main arena conditions is same as main arena if you didn't already realise.

Talking of superior knowledge and all the other stuff, read your own messages, you're having your superior knowledge with me here.

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Kieren:
There is a language barrier I believe you struggle through, and what is probably a more telling point, a cultural one as well. As far as I know Finnish is your native language. You speak pretty good English, so people tend to forget you are not native to the language. More, there are subtle nuances to any culture- more like social taboos- and inevitably you cross them occasionally. That is entirely understandable and forgiveable.
Always remember that, if many people contest your point-of-view, the very least you should do is re-examine it yourself. They just might be seeing something you missed. If people are responding negatively to you, ask yourself, honestly, "Why?". If you see anything that causes you to be flamed, decide if you control it or not. Make the change or get used to the fire. This isn't to suggest not sticking to a valid viewpoint, only that one must leave room for the possibility that occasionally anyone can be wrong.    

Finding right word is not easy at times...  I must admit that..

I have decided though that if I find some stubborn guy that does not wan't to listen me, I'll quit replying to him... (sounds like good way to reduce amount of whine)

[Maverick]

 

Originally posted by Fishu:
Maverick,

You don't have idea of that how much experience I get in few days of play if I am up for testing couple things.
and main arena conditions is same as main arena if you didn't already realise.

Talking of superior knowledge and all the other stuff, read your own messages, you're having your superior knowledge with me here.

Fishu,

You're right. But that is the result of over 24 years experiance in the Army as an Armor Officer. I believe that outweighs any study of the subject you have made to date. I did it, you have just read about it. There is a succinct difference. If you cannot respect the knowledge others have gained through a lifetime of experiance you have need of services not available from this forum.

You started the thread and asked for the information. I, against my first thought, decided to give it a try thinking it was a real request. It seems to have been an error on my part.

Please note, no smileys of any type in either post.

Mav

[bloom25]

I don't usually reply to this kind of thread so...        (That should tell you that what follows is my personal opinion only and should be taken as such.   )

First I should say that I have the greatest respect for you, Fishu.  IMO I think that people get a little bit angry (annoyed?) with your posts for a few reasons.

A.  They always seem to completely disagree with the person who posted before you.

B.  Often they have a hidden sarcastic tone to them, or are obviously totally biased to one side or the other.  (Usually to the effect of "All US planes in AH are overmodelled because the game is made by people in the US.")

C.  People think that you don't play the game enough to have a 100% valid opinion.
(Considering that we have had 4 patches for 1.03, IMO only playing it for a few days does not give you an accurate understanding of the current status of the game.)

D.  Newer players who have not flown against you may believe you are just an outsider that continually posts about the game.  (More experienced players will know this isn't true.)

E.  Because you do not speak English as your native language you may not fully comprehend the conotation of your language.  To put it another way, your posts do not carry the same tone and emotional impact for us, as opposed to what you intended the message to convey.  I find this to be a common source of anger between us.  For example what I thought would be taken as only a joke was taken as an insult by the reader. (I must say that your English is VERY good considering it is not your native language.)

I think it's important to say that I feel you are entitled to post whatever you wish.  No matter what others say, this game wouldn't be the same without you.  

Don't take the above post as a whine or "flame" against you, it isn't.  I was only trying to give you my honest opinion to your question.




------------------
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Maverick:
Fishu,

You started the thread and asked for the information. I, against my first thought, decided to give it a try thinking it was a real request. It seems to have been an error on my part.

Please note, no smileys of any type in either post.

Mav

Yes, I admit, sorry about that... my mistake I believe.
But there is lots of other who are talking BS too though..

It's morning here and I found out that ADSL provider is not working and using 33.6k.. wrong sort of way to wake up and get angry.

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by bloom25:
First I should say that I have the greatest respect for you, Fishu.  IMO I think that people get a little bit angry (annoyed?) with your posts for a few reasons.

B.  Often they have a hidden sarcastic tone to them, or are obviously totally biased to one side or the other.  (Usually to the effect of "All US planes in AH are overmodelled because the game is made by people in the US.")

C.  People think that you don't play the game enough to have a 100% valid opinion.
(Considering that we have had 4 patches for 1.03, IMO only playing it for a few days does not give you an accurate understanding of the current status of the game.)

I think it's important to say that I feel you are entitled to post whatever you wish.  No matter what others say, this game wouldn't be the same without you.  

Don't take the above post as a whine or "flame" against you, it isn't.  I was only trying to give you my honest opinion to your question.

I Might have respect in the plane, but not in the UBB, must fix that problem..
(If that mantra: "fish, shut up" would work someday, many would be happy)

What more replies I do into the thread, that more stupid it gets (and makes people angry) and that will get a change   (realised that its not worth arguing that much)

Well, currently it is just because it seems that US has got those toys for everything..
They could have put there B-17F for example, when every game has B-17G, then it would give those sluggish high altitude german interceptors some chances... (though, I haven't tried recently how german planes flies high altitude now, but that was just poor example ok?)

I don't whine if I don't know  
I haven't been complaining for while now when I don't have any fresh test results which would give me a reason for criticism.
(just arquing, mostly.. even worst than criticism, I figure)


Your post is least to be taken as flame or whine, it is what I have asked for.. (sort of)
Way to type reasons is well thought..
Considering that almost everyone in Finland will study english in school, I don't think that my english is 'very good'

Been figuring whether I should drop level of requirements for AH.
I have always been too much of realism 'geek'
Makes me get annoyed if something is too easy   (bored too..)
might be the cause for that criticism of mine.

[Toad]

"To build may have to be the slow and laborious task of years. To destroy can be the thoughtless act of a single day."
-Sir Winston Churchill

[bloom25]

Fishu, I think it's mainly reason D in my list above.  (Kieren also said the same thing.)  It seems to me that you aren't doing anything that the rest of us don't do.  We all state our opinions on a subject, and often this involves explaining why another's views are incorrect, based on our experiences.  Honestly I don't know why you take as much heat on this board then the rest of us, but I'd say it's probably reason D for the most part.  I'm sure that if I tried to post a joke in Finnish (I couldn't even if I wanted to.   ) it wouldn't quite mean the same thing to you as it does to me.  It may even seem to be an insult to you, even though I thought it was just a simple joke.

Back in High School I took 4 years of Spanish classes.  One thing I learned was that translating a joke from English to Spanish often distorts the meaning of the joke, even though in a dictionary the words mean the same thing.  For example, in Mexico you often meet people who have nicknames like "gordo", which means "fat" in English.  In Mexico this is common practice (pretty common nickname too), but here in the US calling someone "fatty" would almost always be taken as an insult.

I think it's important to remember this when playing a game that attracts players from many different countries who speak many different languages.

A great point is some of the above posts in this thread.  To me they seem pretty neutral for the most part, but to Fishu, I don't know he he will interpret them.  To him they may seem like insults, even though that isn't what the person who wrote them wanted them to be.

 



------------------
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS

[jmccaul]

Forgive and forget i say.

Remember it's much easier to insult someone when typing rather than face to face.