Author Topic: Museum or Oil Ministry - This is a Test -  (Read 1223 times)

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2003, 10:06:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wlfgng
but it is no way the theives fault?  what ?

doesn't hold water Thrawn.


Yes it does.  The thieves are responsible for commiting the crime.  The cops (US) are responsible for trying to stopping them.

It was a situation that the adminstration were made aware of before it was committed.  The adminstration decided to do SFA about.

Museum M is showing the Hope diamond.

Adminstration of Museum M is told by experts that there is a good chance that Museum will be robbed and the Hope diamond stolen, and the Adminstration is in a position to stop it.

Administration does SFA to protect the Hope diamond.

Hope diamond is stolen.

Who is responsible?


The entire argument about the Iraqi citizens being responsible is base on one weak fact.

OMG there are criminals in Iraq??

Holy crap, the Iraqis stole these artifacts??  They are so too blame!!

BS, Iraqi criminals stole these artifacts.  Out of a population of 5,000,000 how many participated in the theft?  

It's a city like any other, in the sense that it has it's law abiding citizens and it's criminals.

The reason why the argument fails is because, although Iraqi criminals commited the crime, the US had an obligation to try and stop them, of which they made no attempt to do so whatsoever.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2003, 10:10:32 PM by Thrawn »

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2003, 11:00:19 PM »
I don't recall so much indignation when the Taliban was destroying 2000 year old Buddahs. Lemme think, which country was it that orchestrated their removal? Ah yes, same folks liberating Iraq. Same folks that will restore order in Iraq, when they can do so without undue risk to their own lives. I value the life of one US soldier far more than all the treasures in Iraq.
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Offline StSanta

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« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2003, 03:23:48 AM »
Check International Law guys.

In case of occupation, it is the duty of the occupying force to guard, police and keep order.

It's for a reason. After a city has fallen, there usually ain't too many of the former rulers there - they'e either fled, been killed or been taken POWs. So the occupying force gotta do the policing. I suspect the US wasn't prepared for such a quick collapse of Baghdad and were caught off guard by the speed of the capture, refusing to really believe it, yet spinning it like mad in the medias.

The US failed here. Remain objective. Judge fairly. Admitting failures isn't equal to non patriotism; blind patriotism IS.

I have an amateur interest in archaeology, and I can tell you this; what was taken was priceless. If put in military terms, this is like the US losing 100 planes, 5000 men, 150 tanks a day for two weeks. Try keeping up a wa of liberation in Iraq with those losses.

Those artefacts...unique. You do realize that those are direct connections to our predecessors (ours as in humans)? Human fingers touched touched those, humans minds invented them - as human as we are.

But you gotta have an interest in archaelogy to understand how old stuff really an hold any value.

Am saddened by this incredible cultural loss. Humanity lost something great here and I hope at least some will be found again :(.

Maybe I should compile a list of the more important items taken along with a description. Perhaps then people will realize it's not just some old socks and stuff, and realize the massive scale of the loss.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2003, 03:33:31 AM by StSanta »

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2003, 03:48:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by StSanta
Check International Law guys.

In case of occupation, it is the duty of the occupying force to guard, police and keep order.

 


Can you be an 'occupying force' before you finish the shootin' war part of the job?
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Offline Naso

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« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2003, 04:36:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Can you be an 'occupying force' before you finish the shootin' war part of the job?


Yes, you can, Holden, unless you want to be a barbarian and lose "the moral high ground" ;)

Anyway, the "blame-shifting" that someone here have made is amaizing.

LOL, France and Germany are responsable of the looting ;)

IMHO, the decision to not give precedence to the Hospitals, Water plants, Power plants, and Museums/libraries was a big mistake, expecially on the PR point of view

Offline Martlet

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« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2003, 04:57:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Naso
Yes, you can, Holden, unless you want to be a barbarian and lose "the moral high ground" ;)

Anyway, the "blame-shifting" that someone here have made is amaizing.

LOL, France and Germany are responsable of the looting ;)

IMHO, the decision to not give precedence to the Hospitals, Water plants, Power plants, and Museums/libraries was a big mistake, expecially on the PR point of view


Water and power plants were beyond our control.   That was done before we got there.

The looting, however, I do agree we should have done something to stop it if at all possible.   Looting palaces, etc, I don't think we should have done anything about.  Those were built with money stolen from the people.  Not stopping the looting of museums and hospitals WAS a big mistake.  Not just for the PR hit we took, either.  I think they were concerned about upsetting the Iraqi population, which would have created bigger problems for the coalition.  

I wasn't there, so I don't know why certain decisions were made.  I do believe we should have protected some historical and humanitarian sites, though.  We didn't, until we started getting bad press for it.  However, we are immediately trying to correct that mistake.  Iraqi's are being taken to coalition hospitals for care.  Medical supplies are being flown into Iraqi hospitals.  FBI is there trying to track down stolen items.   A few have been recovered.

I don't thank that even comes close to putting a bad spin on the over all conflict, though, and ultimate blame lies with the thieves.

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2003, 07:02:30 AM »
Yeh Martlet, but it's still a shame, especially considering all the urgent warning/pleading coming out of the international archaeological groups :/

OTOH, anyone valuing old stuff more highly than human lives deserves to be shot.

Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2003, 08:07:04 AM »
Its a shame that the museum and historical items were lost.  But there are many clues to indicate that it was a inside job, or at the very least a professional robbery, not common looting.  Plus, I bet quite a few of those artifacts are recovered in the end.

But lets be realistic here.  Its a war zone, and there was still combat ongoing at the time.  And there are issues like limited resources.  There are only so many troops to go around.  Could more have been done? Maybe, but we are not there on the ground, and can only arm chair quarterback.

It doesn't matter really.  The "anti war" crowd is going to grasp at anything they can, to try and vindicate their positions.  Especially now that most of their doom and gloom predictions have been proven false.  

No the US hasn't "snapped its fingers" and instantly repaired the entire Iraqi country, and updated it to modern standards (umm wait... it wasn't close in the first place), but I think a good start has been made, and it will improve.

Be realistic guys.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2003, 08:09:23 AM by Vermillion »

Offline Naso

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« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2003, 08:32:39 AM »
Vermillion, being realistic, in a precedence list, occupying a city, and having in mind the strategic objective to "gain their hearts and souls", I will have pointed first to recover the water supply, then the Hospitals, 3rd the power plants, maybe in pair with some cultural symbol that can be used to show/demonstrate the common ground between our cultures (the origins of urban organization, and the writing, basicly), then the rest.

I would have put the Oil Minister very low in my priority list, unless I will need 2 things:

1st, demonstrate the connections of France's oil company with Saddam's regime (easy one ;) ).

2nd, preserving some structure to have quick rebuild of the primary resource of Iraq (with some personal advantage).

Quote
The "anti war" crowd is going to grasp at anything they can, to try and vindicate their positions. Especially now that most of their doom and gloom predictions have been proven false.


Reducing the Anti-war position in a simple generalization, as the "radio-Bush" members here do, is something that change a possible civil discussion in a pissing war, perfect for a propaganda agenda, but not for a common enrichment.

My personal position is that this war, waged out of any common and official agreement (read UN), is something that, in the medium-long term, can have a cost way over what we, as western countries, are willing to pay.

And it's too early to see somthing, now.

Let's hope for the best.

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2003, 11:04:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vermillion
It doesn't matter really.  The "anti war" crowd is going to grasp at anything they can, to try and vindicate their positions.  Especially now that most of their doom and gloom predictions have been proven false.  


Direct hit. Not that it matters, most of these folks have already proven themselves to be beyond reason, for exactly the reason you stated.
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Offline AWMac

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« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2003, 01:38:56 PM »
Perk ARTIFACTS!!!!

:D