Author Topic: Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?  (Read 4312 times)

Offline butch2k

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 238
      • http://www.allaboutwarfare.com/forums
Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2003, 04:34:58 AM »
Yes you are right Naudet, it's taken from actual flight data and it isn't calculated data.

Offline Naudet

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 729
Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2003, 04:41:11 AM »
@Niklas: Is it possible that you contact me at naudet@jg301-wildesau.de , i would have a few questions regarding calculations.

@Butch: Did you get my email?
« Last Edit: May 05, 2003, 06:56:25 AM by Naudet »

Offline niklas

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 418
Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2003, 07:26:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by butch2k
Yes you are right Naudet, it's taken from actual flight data and it isn't calculated data.


Hmm the effect of polishing and filling is pretty high accoding to your charts isnīt it? I mean the clean 190 is 20km/h faster with COMBAT power (2500rpm) compared to the dirty with EMERGENCY power (2700).

I remember a statement from a mechanic that was published over at the luftarchiv forum. Itīs definitly deleted now unfortunatly due to this #&%?~!! I remember that he wrote that they were ordered to polish the Doras they were responsible for all day long. They must have looked like mirrors.

niklas

Offline butch2k

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 238
      • http://www.allaboutwarfare.com/forums
Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2003, 07:31:12 AM »
Yes Naudet i got it, i'll send the requested data tonite. Niklas could you email me please, i have some goodies for you as well.

I'm not that much surprised buy the effect of polishing/filling, i have seen reports where aircraft under that conditions were 40km/h faster than ones in usual combat conditions.

Offline Naudet

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 729
Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2003, 08:15:58 AM »
Yes i am pretty sure polishing had a consideralbe effect on a planes performance.

I also tend to believe that most USAAF/RAF planes did not match the factory specs, once they were a couple of days in action.
Especially a P51 would have to suffer from bad combat conditions with its laminar wings.

Offline HoHun

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2003, 03:00:18 PM »
Hi Niklas,

>Just multiply engine power * prop efficiency

Hm, you may be right about that ... let's see - assumed propeller efficiency 0.75:

1925 HP/0.75 = 2570 HP

The result is shaft-equivalent power, so if we've got 2240 HP at the propeller shaft, we'd have to get 330 HP from thrust - that's about 150 kp.

I can check that using the climb chart:

(Pclimb + Plevel)/0.75 = Peq

(1253 HP + 460 HP)/0.75 = 2325 HP

That leaves only 85 HP from thrust, and as one would expect thrust power to halve at half the speed (300 km/h), that sounds about right.

So maybe you've found the solution, and the D-9 really gets only 611 km/h from 2240 HP.

That would indicate a serious deterioration in aerodynamic quality from the Fw 190A-5, though. Some of it may be attributed to carrying a bomb rack - the Fw 190A-8 seems to have lost 12 km/h at 544 km/h at sea level, and the D-9 speed chart assumes that a bomb rack is carried. However, the figures still make it seem as if the D-9 wasn't much of an improvement over the A series aerodynamically.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline butch2k

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 238
      • http://www.allaboutwarfare.com/forums
Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2003, 03:13:26 PM »
Having seen some German prop efficiency curves, consider efficiency as toping at 125m/sec @ SL with a value of 0.83, and at 160 m/sec @VH with a value of 0.78.

Offline HoHun

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2003, 03:25:08 PM »
Hi Butch,

>I'm not that much surprised buy the effect of polishing/filling, i have seen reports where aircraft under that conditions were 40km/h faster than ones in usual combat conditions.

That seems like too much to stem from filling/polishing alone.

This is from a US Navy F4U test:

"The principal changes in drag included sealing and fairing the wing fold hinge line, removal of the tail hook, carefully fitted cowling, and a faired and smoothed, but not polished skin.

The total speed gain, as a result of drag reduction alone, in this airplane is estimated to be 8 MPH at the airplane upper critical altitude."

As NACA Report 824 indicates that polishing has little effect on an aerodynamically smooth surface  - though it helps to maintain a (filled and sanded) smooth surface - I'd say that you won't get much more than these 8 MPH in total, and not all of this is due to surface finish.

It was compared to another F4U (with a different propeller so conclusions aren't perfectly safe), but the smoothed-skin Corsair displayed a speed advantage of hardly 4 MPH above upper critical altitude to the other Corsair "with a surface finish in rather poor condition but with the tail hook removed." The "rather poor" surface finish was considered typical for aircraft "after moderate service".

I've read several anecdotes about surface polishing, which is usually attributed with much greater effect than this, but one episode told by a German crewman pointed out that after all the work they had spent on the aircraft, they were quite disappointed that the results fell far short of their expectations.

Maybe the 40 km/h were the difference between a factory-fresh aircraft and a combat veteran? If aerodynamic shape is the determining factor, one over-G pullout might suffice to distort the skin enough for such a large difference even if the surface still appears smooth to the unarmed eye.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline butch2k

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 238
      • http://www.allaboutwarfare.com/forums
Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2003, 03:59:15 PM »
on a 109 polishing/filling decreased Cw by 0.004, as a comparison adding MG151 gondolas added 0.001 to Cw.

Offline HoHun

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2003, 04:07:04 PM »
Hi Butch,


>on a 109 polishing/filling decreased Cw by 0.004, as a comparison adding MG151 gondolas added 0.001 to Cw.

Hm, that's difficult to evaluate because the addition of gondolas not only increased the Cw, but also added frontal area (which filling/polishing didn't).

Do you have an absolute value for the Me 109's Cw?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline niklas

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 418
Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #40 on: May 06, 2003, 06:40:06 AM »
cw for aircraft is always based on wing area, not frontal area. Frontal area is for cars afaik

niklas

Offline Naudet

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 729
Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #41 on: May 06, 2003, 10:53:34 AM »
Henning,
honestly i think the US numbers are a bit high.

Even in Kurt Tanks personal memory the A5 managed only speeds of 530-540km@SL and around 640 km/h@6,6.

Do you have a copy of that US report?
I would be interested to look into it.

Maybe the weapons were removed prior to the tests, which would reduce weight and might explain the "extra" boost that A5 seemed to have.


About Cw numbers, i have a some for the FW190, but none for the Bf109.
But they are on the other PC. I will post them later.

Offline HoHun

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #42 on: May 06, 2003, 02:03:30 PM »
Hi Niklas,

>cw for aircraft is always based on wing area, not frontal area. Frontal area is for cars afaik

Wouldn't that mean filling/polishing would have four times the impact of gun gondolas? As the gondolas subtracted at least 15 km/h at full throttle height, that would suggest a 60 km/h loss due to failure to fill/polish, which certainly is too high.

If filling/polishing would have had these extreme effect, there'd been no matte camouflage paint in WW2. From what I know, just this type of paint was pretty much the standard though.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline HoHun

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #43 on: May 06, 2003, 02:17:26 PM »
Hi Lutz,

>Maybe the weapons were removed prior to the tests, which would reduce weight and might explain the "extra" boost that A5 seemed to have.

The weapons were removed, but the aircraft was ballasted to get it to the correct weight. Compared to the D-9, the drag of the wing root guns was absent, and the A-5 didn't carry a bomb rack either.

A four-cannon A-5 would have lost some more speed - any disturbance in the wing's leading edge is a bad thing. (I'd imagine the wing root guns weren't as critical as they were in the interference drag region anyway.) The altered cowl lines for the Fw 190D-9's MG131 guns are another source of drag not present on the A-5.

Other than that, I'd say the A-5 numbers are realistic. I think I've seen British figures for the A-4 posted on this board that agreed quite well, though unfortunately I've been unable to find the report in question on the internet or in my books.

(Early prototypes of the Fw 190 series actually passed the 700 km/h speed mark - guns, armour, more weight, a bigger wing, operational equipment, etc. had a big impact on speed! Or maybe these prototypes were the only Fw 190s ever to be filled/polished ;-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Naudet

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 729
Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #44 on: May 06, 2003, 02:49:02 PM »
Sorry Henning, but i think there is no evidence that supports this:

>Early prototypes of the Fw 190 series actually passed the 700 km/h speed mark - guns, armour, more weight, a bigger wing, operational equipment, etc. had a big impact on speed!

I have now studied many books and sources, memories of Kurt Tank and Pilots but an early FW190 prototype that passed 700 km/h i never heard of.

The V1 was astonishing fast on its 1st appearance, passing 500 km/h at SL and 600 km/h at full boost altitude.
But the 700 km/h mark was way beyond the capabilities of the early prototypes.


I have looked into my dragchart for the FW190 Series, its bad but its starts with the FW190A8.

But i believe the cowl gun will not make such a big difference.

I assume that the US-tested A5 was a "clean" A5 fighter, meaning it had just the inner wing guns and the cowl guns and no ETC racks.
Than the plane would be something like 250-300kg lighter than a D9 with a takeoff weight of 4250-4300kgs.
That might explain why it comes so close.

Btw has anyone managed to get a hand on the D9 evaluation of the USAAF or the RAE?