Author Topic: Attention C-Hog haters  (Read 751 times)

Offline F4UDOA

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Attention C-Hog haters
« on: October 22, 2000, 06:10:00 PM »
Well since none of you pathetic whining drones has put up one shred of documantion proving that either the Guns or the FM of the F4U-1C is over modeled I figured I would give you something else to whine about.

1. This months cover of "Fly Past " magazine shows on the cover a perfectly restored Fg-1D(the Goodyear built version of the F4U-1D) on the cover. But notice that the armament is not 6 50Cals. It is 4 20mils albeit not the Hispano variety cannon. I have seen a number of these birds in the same configuration which leads me to belive that there were more than just the 200 F4U-1C's built by Vought. Although finding production numbers has been impossible. I have personally seen many of this example not just this one restoration.

2. Fo all those concerned about the ability of the F4U to maneuver so well I will give you the conclusion of a flight test done in 1989 by the "Socioty of Expermental Test pilots" in a Syposium given to the Aerospace foudation. They Tested a P-51D, P-47D-40,
FG-1D and a F6F-5 using military power at 10,000FT and this was the result of there testing.

 Conclusions

Quote
"The objective of the program as stated , albeit rather tounge in cheek,
was to decide which of these four aircraft was the best US fighter in
WW2. The answer is "It depends". For general all around comfort, field
of view and ease of operation, the Mustang was a hands down winner. It
also scored high in performance, and was well suited to long range
escort missions and would do well intercepting and defending against
Non-maneuvering targets. However it's extraordinarily high maneuvering
stick forces, totally inadiquate stall warning and vicious departure
characterictics make it quite unsuited to the ACM envirement. It is a
tribute to the adaptabilty of the pilots who flew them that Mustangs
scored so many kills against the opposition.

In a turning fight , the FG-1D emerged with a slight advantage over it's
rivals. Light and comfortable stick forces, good performance, adequate
stall warning and docile behavior at the stall made it the "Weapon of
choice" amoung those tested.

The Hellcat while possesing almost a 1G advantage over the other A/C at
any given speed, was handicapped by heavy stick forces which interfered
with accurate lateral tracking corrections. Very heavy rudder forces
which made coordination difficult, and an extreme reluctance to turn
right at low speed at high power. Despite these short comings, it is
worth remebering that the Hellcat holds the Air to Air kill ratio record
at 19 to 1.

In the air to air envirement , the P-47 did all that was asked of it,
handling nicely but unspectacularly however. It was principly
handicapped by its severly restricted field of view. In the Air to
ground role however , the light stick forces, almost complete absense of
adverse yaw , and crisp, deadbeat tracking responses overcame that
drawback and nade it particularly suitable for the mission. The other
major drawback of the P-47 was it's poorly designed and extremely
uncomfortable cockpit which would undoubtably degraded pilot comfort and
performance on a long mission.

End Quote.

Flame Away

F4UDOA

AKSeaWulfe

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« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2000, 06:32:00 PM »
Nope, just 200 F4U-1Cs were built. How many of the FG-1s had the quad 20s, I don't know but will look around for the information. YOu must keep in mind, restoration projects usually are not 100% accurately done. Sometimes you'll run across a spitfire that had the 8 .303 load out but in the restoration was given the 4x.303s and 2x20s. Fact is, the cannons ARE overmodelled. Every single one in the game. But especially hispanos.. they were extremely prone to jamming, that's why when the SPitfireMkII was experimentally fitted with them in BoB, they were replaced the following sortie because they jammed. That's what's overmodelled, jams are missing. Even .50s are extremely prone to jamming in the P51B and the F4U-1A.. I think the problem was aleviated for the F4U-1D though.

Having never flown a WW2 aircraft I have no comment on the flight model of these aircraft. I put my faith in HTC that their math is correct and the proper drag ratings are incorporated.

I don't think it's the FM of the planes.. it's just that virtually everyone flies one. The guys you saw in the 190A5 during 1.03 made a mad dash to the N1K2 and F4U-1C when 1.04 came out. It's all about survivability. Some will fly the plane that gives them the upper hand(-1C in snap shots, N1K2 in snapshots, ease of flying, and amazingly excellent across the charts). Then some will sit here and fly one plane and repeatedly comment on how it's porked while they have no information on it. Then there are those that fly a lot of the planes just for kicks but stay away from the more common rides.. just to throw in a little variety in the arena.

I kinda like the idea of very few people flying the 190A5 or one of the less used planes.. cuz when I fly one, people underestimate it and think they have all the cards in the deck. Needless to say, they die fairly quickly. ;-)
-SW

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2000, 07:29:00 PM »
The reason they were jamming on the Spitfire MkIb and IIb is because they were mounted on their sides.  This caused friction that the cannon were never intended to have, thus they jammed an unacceptable about of the time.  When they put the cannon in the MkVb, they added the blisters to the wings and mounted the cannon right side up.  Viola, no more major jamming issues.

They did jam more often than Machine guns, but not by very much.  Advantage being that if you have a Machine gun on the P-51 jam, you've got 5 remaining.  If you have a Cannon on a Spit jam, you've only got 1 left, plus the 4 .303s.  One Spitfire MkIb pilot described firing after one cannon had jammed as being worse than flying a twin engined aircraft on one engine.  That's how much the cannon was twisting the aircraft.

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AKSeaWulfe

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« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2000, 07:48:00 PM »
Karnak, the .50s could be charged which *COULD*, not guaranteed, unjam the guns. I'm not sure if 20s can do it?

Nonetheless, adding jams and permanent jams into the current setup we have would make flying a lot more difficult and people would actually think about their load out. Also, there'd be less spray n pray from long range when you are trying to escape.

One other thing, cannons will jam a LOT more frequently in any plane than MGs will when performing high-G manuevers. The heavy cannon projectile can't be fired out of the barrel as well as a lighter MG during high-G manuevers. This would put a whole new twist on flying, wouldn't it?
I'd sure like to see this added before we got any more planes. Just my opinion of course. ;-)
-SW

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2000, 07:54:00 PM »
I want to make my two points again, and thanks for the opportunity  ........

First is the precedant: F4U1C with quad 20s
means that any US plane built between 1939 and 1945 that had even a few examples with the quad 20 should be included in the game.

Second is the fact that I saw on several occasions, F4U1Cs do incredibly high G reversals without nary a loss in E that I could *perceive*!  I really cant draw any conclusions other than these happenings being just larks.  The fact that others have experienced this with N1Ks and to a lesser extent, Spits, makes me wonder if too much E retention made its way into the respective codes.  I trust HT and Pyro will be vigalent in parsing the bad data out, if there is any.

In the meantime I just try to survive in my
pony.

Yeager
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline F4UDOA

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« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2000, 08:37:00 PM »
Gents,

I will try not to pirate my own thread by going off on a tangent but.

I have only heard of the 20mils on a F4U-1C not working becuase of freezing at 20,000Ft.
This was fixed by the addition of gun heaters. I have only heard of 50cals jamming in P-51B/C mustangs because of sideways mountings. In fact the F4U gun charging system was said to perform well.

The Goodyear manufactured FG series I believe did include some 20mil production. If it were only one example I had seen I would say coincidence. But I have seen a few and they are all FG Corsairs. Never Vought and always with a Browning Cannnon installation. Also see this months Air Classics.

As far as the FM goes when the P-38, FW-190 and P-47 were performing uber maneuvers the AH comminity was the first to find the error. So far all test performed have come up normal. I think someone on these boards should be able to conduct some valid test to prove otherwise right??

Later
F4UDOA

AKSeaWulfe

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« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2000, 08:49:00 PM »
Well, the Goodyear plane is in fact just based on the Vought aircraft. It has a bubble canopy and an extended nose to house the R-4360-4 Wasp Major single stage engine rated at 3,000HP(28 cylinder). Only five F2G-1s(FG-1s) and five F2G-2s were delivered before the end of hostilities in the pacific. Provision was made for either four or six wing-mounted .50 caliber guns.

No mention of 20mms. With that, using the Goodyear built F4U isn't a good example as to war time production. Especially since very few were involved in combat and it's in fact a different beast than the F4U-1C or F4U-1D.
-SW

Offline fd ski

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Attention C-Hog haters
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2000, 09:01:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by F4UDOA:
The Hellcat ...Despite these short comings, it is
worth remebering that the Hellcat holds the Air to Air kill ratio record
at 19 to 1.

My canoe armed with the crossbow could attain 19 to 1 kill ration over those 16 year olds flying VAls in 1944.



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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF

Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998

Northolt Wing Headquarters

Offline juzz

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« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2000, 09:24:00 PM »
F4UDOA; how can you tell that they aren't Hispano cannon? What is different about their appearance?

AKSeawulfe; the FG-1 is the Goodyear built F4U-1, the FG-1D is the F4U-1D. These are not the same plane as the F2G with the R-4360 Wasp Major. Goodyear built over 4000 FG-1's during WW2.

fd-ski; I don't think the Japanese manufactured 5,156 D3A's, somehow.

[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 10-22-2000).]

LJK_Reschke

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« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2000, 09:57:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by AKSeaWulfe:
the .50s could be charged which *COULD*, not guaranteed, unjam the guns. I'm not sure if 20s can do it?

Nonetheless, adding jams and permanent jams into the current setup we have would make flying a lot more difficult and people would actually think about their load out. Also, there'd be less spray n pray from long range when you are trying to escape. -SW

To answer for you about unjamming a 20mm cannon or any cannon for that matter.  Yes they could be unjammed provided they had a manual charging handle.  However as you point out the jam was mostly unclearable due to the G-forces that were in place on the ammunition feeding to the gun.  This is something that is seriously needed to be addressed.  I have never seen a game address this fact in the 12+ years of playing flight simulation games.


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StaffelKapitaen, Kommandeur Jagdbomber,
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Offline F4UDOA

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« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2000, 11:21:00 PM »
Juzz,

The differance between the mounting of a Hispano cannon versus a Browning cannon is the Hispano gun barrel extends well beyond the leading edge of the wing. Where as the Browning 20mill conforms more to the shape of the leading edge. It still extends but is not nearly as predominate.

Notice the difference in these photos of a
F4U-1C

 

And F4U-5
 

AKSeawulfe,

Juzz is right. Goodyear manufactured thousands of F4U-1 and -1D's under the varient FG-1 or FG-1D.

Later
F4UDOA

Fd Ski, are you trolling or are you a Luftwable elitest?


Offline StSanta

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« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2000, 11:51:00 PM »
fdski is a proud Spheet fighter!

You see, they went up against the elite right from the start, whereas we Axis had to provide a soft start for the yanks  .

Leave the poor F4U lovers alone now.

Their numbers shall dwindle when the D9 comes, and loud shall their whines be.

 

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Offline Jigster

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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2000, 11:56:00 PM »
I'll have to dig, but most jamming issues with the Hispano weren't from G problems, but a gap that lead to unsufficent force of the firing pin on the primer. Also, the US's heavy use of lubricants added to jamming problems at altitude, fixed by gun heaters.

Note that the Hispanos prone to jamming were the first blocks, that went into service before the talks with the British as far as improving the feeding and firing device. (and the British Hispano became slightly different from the US at this point, because they banned lubricants and had the chamber reduced by 1mm, fixing the fouling problem. The US decided it could deal with the problem, and fixed it in later versions)

Amoung other things, the gearing system for all of the Hispanos wasn't particulalry good, and sometimes only half-fed the next round. It could take up to several charges to get the round realigned, and even then, the unspent round did not always fall away from the disentegrating belt gearing system also failed under heavy G's, but this was also an issue with Browning M2 .50

- Jig

Offline hazed-

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« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2000, 12:13:00 AM »
total of 1,495 D3a's of different versions were built these included 2 prototypes 6 service trials and 470 D3A1 production aircraft.then followed a single prototype of an improved D3A2 model 12 with modified canopy, a 1300HP engine and increased fuel capacity.duly ordered as D3A2 modell 22.1016 D3A2's built by aichi (815)and showa (201).final variant D3A2-K bomber trainer of which an unspecified number  of conversions were made from d3a2's late in the war.

hazed  

Offline Zigrat

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« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2000, 12:16:00 AM »
uhmm explain this c hog drivers
i was doing a little testing
please excuse my poor gunnery with hispano cannon I am not used to their trajectory, else the fight would have ended sooner (the spit not the f4u)
 http://www.iit.edu/~buonmic/f4u.ahf