Author Topic: Finns........ History Question  (Read 2695 times)

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Finns........ History Question
« on: April 23, 2003, 07:38:11 AM »
Boroda tells me the Soviet Union never started a "war of aggression".

He explains the excursion into Finland thus:

"Toad, "invasion" in Finland had only one purpose: to protect Leningrad, and you know it. League of Nations didn't recognize Soviet term of "indirect agression" (BTW, a bad translation, "kosvennaya agressiya" is quite different from "nepryamaya agressiya"), but this term exactly describes what happened in June 24th on Finnish border. JFYI, after the White-Finnish war USSR simply forced an exchange of territory, offered to Finns before the war. "

I'm sure you guys know your history better than I do...  so do you agree with Boroda's assessment?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Curval

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11572
      • http://n/a
Finns........ History Question
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2003, 07:43:32 AM »
LOL...Leningrad needed protection from the Finnish hoards?  Does he really believe what he writes?
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
Finns........ History Question
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2003, 10:02:47 AM »
Er, no.

The Soviets basically stated that Finland, Estonia and Lithuania had the choices of a) voluntarily become part of the Soviet Union or b) involunarily becaome part of the Soviet Union after being conquered.  Finland had a treaty with the Soviets and, naively, trusting that in meant something said "No".  Estonia and Lithuania both said yes as they couldn't see a way out.

When the Finns said no the Soviets had to conquer them.  The Soviets faild to conquer the Finns, but did gain substantial territory, including a large increase in the buffer around Leningrad.  The Soviets then changed what their objectives had been in a face saving measure.  Only after failing to conquer Finland did the war become about increasing Lenigrad's safety.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline ra

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3569
Finns........ History Question
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2003, 10:19:59 AM »
The Soviets were obviously acting in self defense.  The Finns would have invaded Leningrad because they wanted a warm place to spend their winters.

ra

Offline LLv34 Jarsci

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 503
Finns........ History Question
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2003, 11:25:21 AM »
Russians wanted first to trade some ground around Leningrad to get the border more away. Now the city was on range of heavy arty.  Also they wanted to get some islands at Gulf of Finland , and I remember also that they wanted to rent space near Helsinki to make a naval base . A place called Hanko Niemi.

We refused. It was seen from the start that their only goal was to get a good reason to attack Finland. Later when all was going down into the drain Finland tried to yield to some claims, but then russians refused.

They started a plot which aim was to frame Finnish artillery battery for firing some shots on russian troops.  After that they stated that finland had started it and they were only retaliating.

Around 1990 they started to admit that the war was started by russians, before that the blame was rolled on Finnish people.

I saw one good document made by RUSSIAN people, and it stated the facts and reasons very well, and they admitted that the plot to invade Finland was already running when they requested those pieces of land.

So actually , and thats a fact, Russia was the aggressor.

Or it was actually the soviet union those days... no blame to russians solely.. :)

My grandpa died just, 20th of April, 2003, just 3 days ago, at age of 78 years.
He was fighting against russians for 2 years. Told me some stories about strafed horse and truck convoys, AA downing  Sturmoviks and so on.. pretty chilly stuff.

Gonna miss him, he was hard but very good man. Iīm proud of having had him as my GP..

Offline Boroda

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5755
Finns........ History Question
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2003, 11:28:21 AM »
Well, this is not as simple as mr. Radio tries to show it.

First of all, three Pribaltic states signed "military assistance" treaties with USSR. The reason was obvious: nazis openly threatened their independance and integrity. Memel/Klaipeda is a good example.

The problem with Finland was different. USSR wanted to secure Leningrad from an "indirect agression", a term not recognized by Western powers, mostly because they were possibly counting to use indirect agression against USSR. More to say, indirect agression was exactly what happened in 1941 when German troops used Finland as a beachead. It is clear and obvious that if the border remained at Sestroretsk, only 32km from Leningrad (now it's much closer - the city grows), enemy troops could reach Palace square and even industrial districts in the South of Leningrad in a few hours.

Soviet government offered Finland a fair exchange of Karelian Istmuth for two times more land in Karelia, but Finnish government refused. Then - Mainila happened, and the war began. Finland probably relied on Western military assistance, but it didn't come in time. Future "allies" let Hitler rape Poland without waving a finger, so they wanted him to attack USSR and didn't want to engage in future War. It's pretty obvious, and many Western sources share this point of view.

After complete defeat of Finnish defence in March 1940 their parliament was wise enough to sign a cease fire on the conditions offered by USSR before the war. It's interesting that Mannerheim insisted on agreement with Soviet Union before the war... He was a former Russian general and understood that Finnish army doesn't stand a single chance against Russians. Two weeks of defence promised by Mannerheim turned into the worst campain for Russian/Soviet army since maybe 1905. I wonder what could happen if Russians didn't blow up forts of Finnish Gulf in 1918... I spent my childhood in the military harrison, "summer quarters" of the Komarov military engineering college in Privetnenskoe, literally on the ruins of fort Ino. It looked really impressive even 60 years after it was blown up...

I have once wrote here that my Father was a schoolboy in 1940, he lived in Rostov on Don. His school was turned into a hospital in winter 1940, it's hard to imagine the losses if wounded warriors didn't fit into hospitals even that far South... Mostly frozen, less - wounded...

The point where most of the Finns disagree with me is that Stalin didn't want to occupy the whole Finland. After Mannerheim line was broken in March 1940 and Kirponos's tanks croosed the ice of Finnish gulf - everything was over, and nothing could stop Red Army. Instead of occupation Stalin preferred to agree on pre-war conditions.

I have to point out that all USSR foreign policy (as well as internal policy :() in late-30s had one simple purpose: to survive in the inevitable War. The non-agression pact with Hitler didn't fool anyone - the war was in the air, and the enemy was clear.

Offline Boroda

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5755
Finns........ History Question
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2003, 11:52:13 AM »
Jarsci, Salute to your Grandfather!...

You Finns are great warriors.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Finns........ History Question
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2003, 06:41:44 PM »


That's it?

One Finn replies?

Guess I'll have to look elsewhere to see if Boroda is right about the peace-loving peoples of the Soviet Union and their brothers the Finns just having a teensy tiny little spat.

I guess it's true then that the Soviet forces absolutely kicked the Finns rear ends in short order... but in a totally non-aggressive way.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline mietla

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2276
Finns........ History Question
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2003, 07:16:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
... Future "allies" let Hitler rape Poland without waving a finger.


Why so modest? You guys you did half of the raping... Obviously in self defense I presume.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2003, 07:34:39 PM by mietla »


Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
Finns........ History Question
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2003, 10:06:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
More to say, indirect agression was exactly what happened in 1941 when German troops used Finland as a beachead.


Gee, you think that the fact that the Soviet Union tried to conquer Finland in 1939 might have played a small part in the Finn's decision to allow Germans to attack through Finland?

Naw, that'd never happen.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline crabofix

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 481
Finns........ History Question
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2003, 10:11:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad


That's it?

One Finn replies?

Guess I'll have to look elsewhere to see if Boroda is right about the peace-loving peoples of the Soviet Union and their brothers the Finns just having a teensy tiny little spat.

I guess it's true then that the Soviet forces absolutely kicked the Finns rear ends in short order... but in a totally non-aggressive way.


Soviet had 5 700,000 troops trying to occupy Finland.
The Finns where 200,000. (Loosing 10% of the territory isīnt what I call defeat).
They hold their lines for nearly 4 months.
Bombing civilian targets in a Capital city is very aggresive way.
Shooting at red-cross market cars is also aggresive and a warcrime. Common behavior of especialy: The Soviet Airforce.

(Funny how history often is repeated.)

Stalin tried to rape The Finns, got his Balls kicked in, End of story.

I am proud that My Grandfather where apart of this "ballkicking".

Crabofix

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Finns........ History Question
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2003, 10:36:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
Well, this is not as simple as mr. Radio tries to show it.

 


LOL!

This thread starts with YOUR way of showing it! That's a direct quote of YOURS!


But it's starting to look like a few Finns don't exactly agree with the way you view it.

:D
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Fishu

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
Finns........ History Question
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2003, 11:00:14 PM »
Boroda is just telling us what hes been taught :)

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Finns........ History Question
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2003, 11:19:12 PM »
Yes, and you Finns should apologize for the aggressive attack you made on the poor Soviet Union! Shame! Shame!

Latvia

Quote
In the 1930s Latvia placed its economy on a sound footing. It adopted a neutral position after the outbreak of World War II (1939-1945). On October 5, 1939, Latvia signed a mutual-assistance treaty with the USSR and, later, a reparations convention with Germany. In June 1940, following the fall of France, the USSR accused Latvia of forming, with neighboring Estonia, a secret anti-Soviet military alliance, and Soviet forces occupied the country. After elections supervised by the Soviet army, a Communist regime was installed, and on August 5, 1940, Latvia became the 15th constituent republic of the USSR.


Same http://www.russianservice.com website, Estonia

Quote
In June 1940 Soviet forces occupied Estonia and the other Baltic republics of Latvia and Lithuania. Elections were then organized, in which only Soviet-supported candidates were permitted to run. On August 6, 1940, Estonia became a republic of the USSR.


Lithuania? Glad you asked! (Encarta, lying Capitalist Running Dog Lackey Microsoft Encyclopedia)

Quote
With the outbreak of World War II and the partition of Poland by Germany and the USSR, the Lithuanian and Soviet governments concluded a mutual-assistance treaty in October 1939. A new pro-Soviet government was installed in Lithuania the following June. Shortly thereafter the Communist Working People's Bloc, the only political party allowed to function, campaigned for inclusion of Lithuania in the USSR. Political dissidents were rounded up, and the electorate voted, on July 14 and 15, 1940, in a single-slate parliamentary election. The new parliament unanimously approved a resolution requesting incorporation of Lithuania in the USSR. The Soviet government granted the request on August 3...

Large-scale anti-Soviet uprisings in Lithuania followed the German invasion of the USSR on June 22, 1941. Unable to contend with both the revolt and the German onslaught, the Soviet forces withdrew. The Germans systematically pillaged Lithuanian resources and, as a national resistance movement developed, killed more than 200,000 people.

In the summer of 1944 the Soviets reoccupied Lithuania, which was reestablished as a Soviet republic. The Soviet government deported about 350,000 Lithuanians to labor camps in Siberia as punishment for holding anti-communist beliefs or resisting Soviet rule.


Oh, yes.. it sure looks like the Soviets were warmly welcomed when they occupied Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania.

How come you Finns didn't greet them with wine and flowers too? You evil aggressors!
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!