Author Topic: Messerschmitt Me 410  (Read 2583 times)

Offline Pongo

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Messerschmitt Me 410
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2003, 01:02:27 AM »
Duel 13mm in the tail would be as accurate as any tail gun we have. With a slow over take speed it would be a very effective plane in this game I think.

Offline Karnak

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Messerschmitt Me 410
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2003, 01:59:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
Duel 13mm in the tail would be as accurate as any tail gun we have. With a slow over take speed it would be a very effective plane in this game I think.


Only if it is modeled incorrectly.  Modeled correctly it would be horribly inaccurate as the Me410's tail gun system was over-complicated for the engineering capabilities of the day.
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Offline Bullethead

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Messerschmitt Me 410
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2003, 11:17:43 AM »
Karnak said:
Quote
Only if it is modeled incorrectly.  Modeled correctly it would be horribly inaccurate as the Me410's tail gun system was over-complicated for the engineering capabilities of the day.


The US and Germans both put a fair amount of effort into remote-control turrets, both on operational planes and some that didn't get beyond prototypes.  Some systems seem to have worked pretty well, too.  So was it something peculiar to the 410's system or what?

BTW, seems to me that only 1 of the 410's guns could bear on most targets.

Offline AGJV44_Rot 1

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Messerschmitt Me 410
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2003, 11:32:45 AM »
deudel i have a ton of docs all in german about the 410.  Performance charts you name it.

Offline AGJV44_Rot 1

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Messerschmitt Me 410
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2003, 11:42:35 AM »
I have read numerous reports of 410 rear gunner getting kills.  I know one off the top of my head was a P-38 squadron leader who was killed by one.

Offline Pongo

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Messerschmitt Me 410
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2003, 11:50:16 AM »
all turrents in this game are modeled incorrectly.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2003, 01:24:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
all turrents in this game are modeled incorrectly.


True.
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Offline Replicant

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Messerschmitt Me 410
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2003, 05:04:16 AM »
The 410 is sure a beauty, I'd like to see how they'd model the rear cannons!  Any ideas?

NEXX

Offline Staga

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Messerschmitt Me 410
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2003, 07:40:10 AM »
There's already a system implemented which forbids the gun shoot thru fuselage. Thus both MGs could follow the target but only one with target on its firing arc is firing.

Offline Replicant

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Messerschmitt Me 410
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2003, 07:43:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Staga
There's already a system implemented which forbids the gun shoot thru fuselage. Thus both MGs could follow the target but only one with target on its firing arc is firing.


I was thinking more of how to aim the guns!  How did they aim in RL, purely by luck?
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Offline Staga

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Messerschmitt Me 410
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2003, 08:15:16 AM »
IIRC there was two handles and a sights for gunner, kinda like a dummy gun. I'll check if I can find pics.

Here's one thought dunno know if sights were optical or "ring and Bean" type. Gotta search more :)

Should look my books first... This one is about Me210 gunner thought system was same in Me410.


And firing arcs (me410):
« Last Edit: April 27, 2003, 08:45:53 AM by Staga »

Offline hazed-

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Messerschmitt Me 410
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2003, 09:16:37 AM »
The 410 was considered an improvement over the 110 by the Germans whereas the 210 wasnt.
Ive read some stuff about the cockpit having the rather nasty tendancy to burst into flames when hit. Theres a mention about pilots not liking it because it took so long to bail from the aircraft.Cant have been nice to see your friends trapped in a burning cockpit thats for sure.

The good points about the 410 is its slightly faster than the 110 whilst still able to carry a greater range of ladouts.

theres the standard 2x20mm MG151 +2x7.9mm MG 17 +2x13mm MG 131 in rear barbettes
then with guns loaded into to bombbay:
(me410 B-2/u2) 2x20mm(Mg151)+2x20mm 2x7.9mm + 2x13mm
(me410 B-2/u2/r2) 2x30mm(mk108)+ 2x20mm 2x7.9mm+ 2x13mm
(me410 B-2/u2/r3) 2x30mm(mk103)+ 2x20mm 2x7.9mm+ 2x13mm
(me410 B2/u2/r5) 4x20mm(mg151)+2x20mm 2x7.9mm+ 2x13mm
(me410 B2/u4) 1x50mm(BK5)+2x20mm 2x7.9mm+2x 13mm
(me410 B6) 2x30mm(mk103)]/b]+2x20mm 2x13mm(replacing 7.9mm)+ 2x13mm

there was also a revolving drum of 6 wr21cm air to air rockets held in the bomb bay.One rocket at a time protruded from the underside of the bay and they rotated as it fired :D


It could carry 8x 50kg OR 2x500kg OR 1x1000kg in the bombay( anything over 500kg was considered overloaded) plus the option of 4x 50kg's on external wing racks.

as you can see it would be similar to the 110 up to a point but if AH doesnt model the Bk5 or the 2xmk103 option it wouldnt be a huge leap over the 110g2 and therefore not really a good introduction over more needed aircraft like the he177 for instance.

if however getting a 410 means i can play with a 50mm cannon or 2x 30mm from the much improved mk103 then BRING IT ON!!! :D hey and id like to fire off 6 rockets in a fast salvo too :)

Offline Duedel

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Messerschmitt Me 410
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2003, 10:50:01 AM »
Thx guys for response.

@Karnak: The Me 410 was a fairly fast plane. Regarding ur interesting story i guess it depends on the load out or version the 410 had.

@AGJV44: Do u have these docs in electronic format too?

Offline Grendel

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Messerschmitt Me 410
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2003, 01:55:46 PM »
Production of the 210

Production began in Spring 1941 in both Augsburg and Regensburg factories; first deliveries began in April 1941.

A very important innovation in the Me 210 design was the use of side rear firing Mg131 turret guns (barbettes) controlled by the rear crew member by the means of a ReVi gun sight and a pistol grip with the firing trigger. These barbettes were delicate maintenance pieces and were not easy to handle. A famous victim of these guns was the American Ace Captain James Morris of the 20th Group. On 7/07/44, over Halle and Bernburg, he was shot down and killed in his P-38 Lightning by an attacked Me 410.

By the end of `41 the test program was over and the final evaluation was that it was still an unsuitable firing platform for its stability problems. Messerschmitt modified a pre-production plane (Me 210 A-0 NE+BH Werk Nr. 101) with lengthened rear fuselage (lengthened by 1˝ panels) and redesignating it with the Versuch-number V17 on 14/03/42. This modification was very successful in increasing the plane’s handling qualities. Another important modification was the fitting, in July 1942, of wing leading edge slots. Soon after flying tests it was ordered to retrofit all Me 210 As with this device.

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The Me 410 "Hornisse"

The Me 410, was an improvement of the Me 210 proposed as a high altitude fighter/bomber with two DB 603A engines (1750 hp), wing edge slats, a presurized cabine, lengthened engine nacelles and no sweep back on the wings. The Me 410 was waited everywhere in all fronts by 1943 and arrived too late. When it finally arrived, it was usually limited to the role of high-speed bomber or reconnaissance. The Hornisse was more successful in Observation units 1 and 7 than in the interceptor role.

The first prototype V1 was ready by the end of 1942. The entire test program envolved some twenty test planes many of which were modified Me 210s. The armament was the same as in the Me 210.

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Hungarian 210

In Hungary th Me 210 in the Ca-1 version was builded by the Dunai Repülögépgyár (Danube Aircraft Factory) under the Mutual Armament Program between Germany and Hungary. Two-thirds of this aircraf factory were to be delivered to Luftwaffe and the rest to the Honvéd Air Force. Even if it was mainly used as a Gyorsbombázó (fast bomber), the Me 210 Ca-1 was also used by the 5/1. night fighter Squadron known also as Bagoly (Owl) Squadron sited at Ferihegy airfiled in 1944.

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About the guns:

The Me 410 guns had the usual German defensive machine gun setting: lead calculating mechanical calculator gunsights, with system moving the machine guns and shooting whichever or both guns could fire at the target.

Offline HoHun

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Messerschmitt Me 410
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2003, 02:39:51 PM »
Hi Grendel,

>The Me 410 guns had the usual German defensive machine gun setting: lead calculating mechanical calculator gunsights, with system moving the machine guns and shooting whichever or both guns could fire at the target.

"Usual" doesn't seem quite accurate as there was such a great variety of defensive systems in the Luftwaffe :-)

The Me 410 was unusual in having three reflector sights (port canopy "bulge", centre canopy rear, starboard canopy "bulge") mounted on the same mechanical unit that also featured the pistol grip. Depending on the direction of the attack, the gunner had to look through the appropriate sight. They all moved in parallel, but if the attack for example came from low starboard, the view from the centre sight of course could be blocked by the fuselage :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)