America... The last Super Power

[crowMAW]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So this super secret evil organization is made more evil by publishing its membership list...

What makes you think they are a secret.  Don't misconstrue your ignorance as some plan on PNAC's part to be secretive about their existance or intentions.

[GRUNHERZ]

I dont think its secret, in fact they are very open - I just dont understand how this openness and transparency actually make them more evil and controlling in your eyes...

Frankly you said it best yourself - you are paranoid..

[crowMAW]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I dont think its secret, in fact they are very open - I just dont understand how this openness and transparency actually make them more evil and controlling in your eyes...

I'm sorry, I think I may have given you the wrong impression then.  I don't think that they are anymore evil or controlling because they operate in the open.

Grim was making the point that he doesn't believe in the Skulls or other conspiracy theory groups.

I was pointing out that PNAC isn't a conspiracy group...they are a political action group.  Unlike conspiracy groups, they operate in the open and have published their agenda and publish their position on various issues. Unlike conspiracy groups, we know who publicly supports their position, and we know what members hold positions that can influence policy making in the government.

The fact that they do this is not evil...it is part of how government works.  I only find their agenda to be unrepresentative of the ideals I respect.

[GRUNHERZ]

Ahh Ok! NP then you simply disagree with their outlook on the world. I wouldnt worry too much though every adminstration has has its core of ideoligical activists and this one is no different. Like we saw with bill clinton and some of his more controversial ideas they were limited in what they accomplished because of congress and the courts - it is pretty much the same thing now with bush, look how his huge tax cut is being whittled down by both by some republicans and democrats.

America is good country and americans are basically good people, we figure things out pretty even in the end and we always have.

[Nash]

Hrmph... I see this technique being used way too often. Frame the debate as if something must be a conspiracy and then ridicule it. Skulls? Yegads...

Nobody is saying PNAC is secretive. Nobody is claiming conspiracy. Quite the contrary. They're an open organization and they spell out their agenda very clearly. It's all on their own webpage for heaven's sake. Several members carry a lot of influence with the Bush administration, and some are even within the Bush administration. There's just nothing secretive or shocking about it. There's also nothing inherently sinister about it.

So there's no need for the "deth to amreeka" sarcasm followed by dismissal because you think this is some kind of conspiracy theory. PNAC itself wouldn't deny its aims and influence in shaping foreign policy (its why they exist, afterall), so why should you?

[GRUNHERZ]

Where have I or anybody else said they arent trying to influence foreign pollicy? So what, so is every other interst group or think tank in the country and of all political persuasions. Do you think that because you disagree with their outlook    that they shouldnt have a voice?

The only people who ever honestly bring up the conspiracy bit are those who insist PNAC has some super special influence in what actually happends. Hell some of you lefties even implied that PNAC somehow orchestrated the 911 attack in order to push their agenda.  Statements like that are ridiculous and you shouldnt be surporised if they arouse anger and ridicule.

[Toad]

Originally posted by cpxxx
People have jobs if they want one and barbeques and jacuzzis and decking and filipino maids and boats and house and apartments and vacations and vacation homes in Europe or condos in Florida, drive German or Japanese (but American made or owned) cars and wear designer clothes. Not everyone of course, certainly not me. But it really a lot more common than it was.

This was in part due to good tax breaks for foreign companies, an open economy (American style), good education system and being English speaking.

We have done well by America. We are effectively part of the American empire.

Interesting; these are things that you think make you part of the "American Empire" or "just like Americans"?

This is how you define "Americanism"?

I'll tell you how I view it. If there's anything "American" in there, it's that the people of Ireland had the freedom to make a choice without external threat of force or violence.

In short, if this is how Ireland is now, it's because the IRISH chose to be this way.

That, if anything, is what is "American" about this.

Significant in these complaints about a McDonald's on the sacred home turf is that no one.. .NO ONE... forces any country to accept a McDonald's. US Marines don't land and hold the perimeter while the drive-thru is built.

Again, it's a CHOICE, a free choice, that some most likely LOCAL investor or some entrepreneur makes with a view towards improving his or his family's life.

So, most of it rings hollow. Don't want a McDonald's? Take your business somewhere else. No customers and eventually McD will fold and move on.

It's amusing to an extent. People seem to want to copy our culture but don't want to admit that they do.

Yet, obviously, the freedom to choose isn't exclusively American. It's something that's felt in the heart of just about every man in every country who looked up into a clear starry night while holding his first born son, isn't it?

So choose what you like, like what you choose. Just don't try to blame US if you don't want a McDonald's in your town. Because that's a CHOICE that someone in your town made in all probability.

[Toad]

Originally posted by crowMAW
I was pointing out that PNAC isn't a conspiracy group...they are a political action group.  Unlike conspiracy groups, they operate in the open and have published their agenda and publish their position on various issues. Unlike conspiracy groups, we know who publicly supports their position, and we know what members hold positions that can influence policy making in the government.

The fact that they do this is not evil...it is part of how government works.  I only find their agenda to be unrepresentative of the ideals I respect.

Exactly. They are a some what "typical" political action group. They are not evil and this IS part of how our government works.

What appears to upset or worry you is that they appear to be achieving some of their goals AND you don't agree with their goals.


Pretty much how I felt during the 8 years of recent Democratic "hegemony" (had to laugh when I read that.. lots of words to pick from but "hegemony?").

Yin and Yang. To and fro. Ebb and flood tides.

8 years of going one way and now the pendulum is swinging back.

Relax, the NPAC isn't going to destroy the nation or the world. They'll probably swing the pendulum a bit though.

And then it will swing back.

[Pongo]

"Yet here we are, shuffling along much the same as we always have been.
"
that is an extremely questionable assessment.
Miltitarly adventurists of the highest order. So brave with 1000s of nuclear warheads behind them. So righteos with their church boiling over into their goverment and any miss deeds in their own back grounds swept away. So infalable when thier pet dictators bite back.
Such gamblers only play for very high stakes, and they do not quit. The rest of the world, to a country is wondering what is next.

[Toad]

Presidential hopeful Graham slams Bush

"I think they made a mistake," the former Florida governor told ABC's "This Week," referring to the Bush administration's rejection of his plan to give the president authority to go after Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad, three organizations Graham calls the "A-list" of terrorist groups that operate largely from Syria.

"They did not want that particular ball in their court," he said.

Saying that those three organizations need to go, Graham proposed telling the Syrians they could no longer harbor terrorists and should resolve the situation immediately.

"If they don't, then [the U.S.-led coalition that toppled the Taliban] will take care of it," he said. "The 'it' is not regime change; the 'it' is those terrorist organizations."

If so, there's PNAC's in both parties, eh?

[Toad]

Your entitled to your opinion. And unlike some here apparently, I still think you're entitled to it even if you don't agree with me.

Again, don't forget that what you see as "military adventurism" has been approved by the vast majority of both houses of Congress. It's not just "Bush and the dreaded PNAC".

And it isn't the nukes either. Our conventional forces alone are clearly more than enough for what Congress authorizes/authorised.


What's next?

Internationally, continued efforts to get Afghanistan and Iraq up and running as "normal" countries will self-determination.

Dealing with the NK nuclear issue in concert with China, SK and Japan...... because I seriously doubt that the UN SC will engage this issue even though the UN IAEA has placed the problem before the SC.

Nationally..... it's the economy.

But those are just my thoughts/guesses, based on no major events like 9/11 happening in the relatively near term.

[Pongo]

Give up the nukes then.
lol
Any way. You saying the world goes on as normal is kind of silly.

[Karnak]

PNAC is unlike any other political action comitee in that it has members at the highest levels of the Executive Branch, e.g., Vice President Richard Cheney and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld.

To my knowledge no political action comitee has had this many members this high in government before.

However, as was pointed out by Toad, they must get their ideas through the Legislative Branch as well.  This doesn't seem to be much of a problem going through the House right now, but the Senate is a problem they haven't solved.


As to the idea that they covertly are responsible for 9-11, that is sheerly idiotic.  Both sides have idiots, and the Lefties who really belive that are morons.

That said, PNAC members are certainly exploiting the post-9-11 situation in order further their agenda.  Not that it is unusual for people in power to exploit world events to further their agendas.

[Lizard3]

Originally posted by Toad

Significant in these complaints about a McDonald's on the sacred home turf is that no one.. .NO ONE... forces any country to accept a McDonald's. US Marines don't land and hold the perimeter while the drive-thru is built.


So choose what you like, like what you choose. Just don't try to blame US if you don't want a McDonald's in your town. Because that's a CHOICE that someone in your town made in all probability.

BUT!!! If Walmart ever comes to town to start negotiations with the local government, get yer guns. Your local area economy is about to go out the window!

Walmart opens up, kiss yer women goodbye. The only place you can find em is WALMART.

Want to buy a little something for yourself? New Razor? Fishin Rod? To bad, your wife already spent all the money you made at WALMART. She got you a new welcome mat for the front door and the latest model of Chia Pet....as seen on TV.

Walmart comes to your town, kiss every mom and pop shop you can think of except fast food joints(those are next) goodbye. Grocery stores, fruit markets, butchers, tire shops, hardware stores, clothing stores. All gone. Ground to a pulp by the TRUE amerikan menace.

WALMART!!!

Arm yourselves!

hehe

[GRUNHERZ]

Wal-Mart and its newly acqured european subsidiaries are very popular in europe, especially the UK and Germany...

So there, we know you love it...