Author Topic: America... The last Super Power  (Read 3189 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #60 on: April 28, 2003, 10:04:14 AM »
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Originally posted by Ike 2K#
LOL

You should see wall mart in Los Angeles, California. Its gonna give you an impression as if you were in a "swap meet" or the black market. Wall Mart in Los Angeles is messy and you will see lots of clothes on the floor and toy boxes opened.


Oh yes, I agree 100%! Wal-Mart is a frightful place like thrirld world bazzar but they have tons of stuff and all very cheap, again like a third world bazzar. No wonder they love it in europe...

But it is a fantastic business and very profitable and of cource the biggest retailer in the world and very very poular in europe, just like McDonalds...

Offline Martlet

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« Reply #61 on: April 28, 2003, 10:28:44 AM »
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Oh yes, I agree 100%! Wal-Mart is a frightful place like thrirld world bazzar but they have tons of stuff and all very cheap, again like a third world bazzar. No wonder they love it in europe...

But it is a fantastic business and very profitable and of cource the biggest retailer in the world and very very poular in europe, just like McDonalds...


Yes, unlike many south american countries, where you buy your food and ice after it's been laying on the street.

Offline crowMAW

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« Reply #62 on: April 28, 2003, 10:50:33 AM »
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Crow: Right...do you believe we should use military force to regime change simply to set up new governments friendly to the US?


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Originally posted by Toad
No, I don't. Apparently you don't either.  


OK, so we agree that the PNAC agenda where military force is used to implement regime change in order to create the Kristol vision of a "benevolent global hegemony" is unacceptable.  Can we also agree that many PNAC members, who do believe in the Kristol vision, now hold positions of extreme influence in the Bush Administration (see a list in my previous post)?  Would you also agree that it is likely that these beliefs maybe effecting current US foreign policy, especially based on recent US actions that mirror the recommendations made by PNAC in their letters and other past publications?

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However, I also don't believe that Iraq would have been invaded by the US IF Hussein had complied with the terms of the '91 ceasefire and the following 12 years of ~17 UN/SC resolutions to get them to comply[/B]

If that were the only necessary justification, then why did the Administration bother producing other excuses?  Is it because the other excuses were the only ones that would appear reasonable for the US to act without UN sanction and to ignore UN1441?

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Are you characterizing the present Congress as willing to capitulate to Bush's will? If so, tell me why Bush's tax cut has been reduced by 30% and it's looking like it will be reduced even further.  [/B]


I mentioned that in my other post...however, my own personal feelings (and they are nothing more than that) are that Congress did capitulate on the Iraq Resolution and swallowed the Administration's pablum.  Having worked for some of the folks in Congress, I know many are intelligent enough to realize that the "evidence" presented by the Administration to justify the war was pretty weak...but they supported the President anyway.

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I'm sorry, I just don't see this monolithic PNAC block rolling over all opposition in our government.[/B]

I agree...their members and other like-minded neo-cons don't run everything.  But I do think they hold positions of extreme influence on foreign relations and defense issues in this administration.  And it does appear that this president is willing to let his decisions be influenced by these advisors.  Bush Sr had several of the same folks in his administration who provided him with similar advice in '92, however he also had enough foreign relations experience to recognize and reject that bad advice.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #63 on: April 28, 2003, 12:04:14 PM »
Where we apparently don't agree is that PNAC has the power to make things happen. Their beliefs in the use of military force are just that; their beliefs. They can't "send in the troops". They can suggest it, their members in appointive office can reccomend it.. but CONGRESS has to approve it. Checks and balances. Gotta love the founders.

So, I'm not getting worked up about it. But feel free to do so yourself.

"Produce other excuses"? I think any administration tries to gather as much support as they can in any way they can. They'll "produce' as much support as they can, in any way they can.

There was absolutely NO justification for Clinton to go into Bosnia. There was no UN SC resolution and the act itself was a CLEAR VIOLATION OF THE NATO CHARTER. Yet they managed to "produce other excuses" to justify their actions.

Fer pete's sake... you're acting like special interests are something new. I'll wager there were "special interests" bugging George Washington and the first Congress too.

Congress capitulated? Maybe they just agreed? Look at the vote.. it's not even close. It had plenty of support on both sides of the aisle. Hard to paint that as as  PNAC conspiracy or PNAC overwhelming power.

The "neo-cons" don't have any more influence in the Bush administration than the "neo-libs" did in the 8 years of the Clinton admin. They had postions of "extreme influence" too. Every President is influenced to some degree by the opinions of his advisors.. that's why they call them "advisors".

As I said, will you still be concerned if Bush doesn't win reelection and a whole new cast of characters takes over those PNAC positions of influence?

It's just American politics. Yin and Yang... and it's a good system. Yeah, the pendulum is moving in the conservative direction. And not only is that to be expected after 8 years of moving in the liberal direction, it's probably a good thing.

And it'll be a good thing when it swings back the other way too. And it will. That's what keeps us heading towards the center over the long term.  ;)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2003, 12:07:27 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #64 on: April 28, 2003, 12:06:29 PM »
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I look forward to seeing them march against the Russian war in Chechnya or North Korean death camps or Mugabe in Zimababwe.

I suspect I have a long wait.


Those saying 'US is evil' are clearly lunatics.

Those saying 'I disagree with US foreign policy and my country's part in it' are probably entirely sane.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline crowMAW

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« Reply #65 on: April 28, 2003, 01:14:00 PM »
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Originally posted by Toad
Where we apparently don't agree is that PNAC has the power to make things happen. Their beliefs in the use of military force are just that; their beliefs. They can't "send in the troops". They can suggest it, their members in appointive office can reccomend it.. but CONGRESS has to approve it. Checks and balances. Gotta love the founders.

Question for you then Toad...what role can the executive branch play in influencing the legislative?  None?  Some?  At the Federal level, does the president as head of the party have any sway over members of his party in the Congress?  If the president vociferously supports an issue, what effect do you think that may have on legislative members of his party?

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There was absolutely NO justification for Clinton to go into Bosnia. There was no UN SC resolution and the act itself was a CLEAR VIOLATION OF THE NATO CHARTER. Yet they managed to "produce other excuses" to justify their actions.[/B]

I agree, and I did not support that action either.

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As I said, will you still be concerned if Bush doesn't win reelection and a whole new cast of characters takes over those PNAC positions of influence?[/B]

I think it would depend on the issue...if this future administration is stacked with those in favor of socialized healthcare, I would probably be suspicious of their agenda especially if the new appointees had been members of a PAC that advocated making all healthcare providers Federal employees and nationalizing all healthcare facilities.  I'd become even more suspicious if the president successfully lobbies Congress to initiate portions of that PAC's agenda...it would certainly cause me concern that they may succeed in implementing their full agenda.

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And it'll be a good thing when it swings back the other way too. And it will. That's what keeps us heading towards the center over the long term.  ;)   [/B]

True...I am concerned however about the damage to the goodwill we earned immediately following 9/11 and the cost of the lost trust in the long term. How easily that goodwill was damaged and how difficult it will be to repair by some future administration. (It is kind of like the deficit...eventually you have to pay one way or another.)

I'm sure there have been other PACs who have had a great deal of influence in the past (certainly Zbigniew's Trilateral from the 70's comes to mind).  However, I'm not so sure that the risks of implementing their agendas had the extreme consequences that the PNAC/neo-con military agenda has on our long term ability to work with other nations to resolve international issues.  Perhaps you have some examples that would compare?

Offline Nash

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« Reply #66 on: April 28, 2003, 02:28:18 PM »
"nash... so.. you are saying that our empire is really not an empire since it takes no land but we should all fear the U.S. as an empire builder anyway?"

Uhh... No.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #67 on: April 28, 2003, 05:48:46 PM »
Crow, it's the old saying. The President proposes and the Congress disposes.

Nothing gets done without money. The Prez can propose anything he likes but it's Congress that provides the wherewithal to get it done.

Again, look at the tax cut. It's way down from Bush's original proposal and it's going to go down again from where they're at now.

So I would say the Prez has some influence. He can sway some party members in Congress and some he can't. (Voinovich of Ohio in this case)

It's just not as lock step as you'd like to make it, IMO. Basically, even the Prez can't get Congress to agree on anything which is why it's pretty rare anything gets done... which, is probably a good thing. ;)

But no Congress is the President's lapdog. They understand and defend their role in the checks and balances scheme of government.


So, if the next administration sets those goals and you become "suspicious"... what possible difference does it make? You'll just work against it like you're working against what you perceive to be bad PNAC ideas. You write your Reps, you write the Prez, you speak out to your neighbors to do the same.

And, in the end, no matter what the new Prez and his suspicious cronies propose, it will be CONGRESS, all 585 or whatever of them, that makes the decisions. Those "suspicious" guys will have to convince a majority of our Reps while "we the people" have the opportunity AND responsibility to make our desires known.

Goodwill lost? I'm not sure there was much to lose. Somebody has to do the right things, even if they're hard. Now I'm not saying Iraq was "right". I would have preferred a specific UN SC resolution. But if the WMD are found, I think overall it was the "right" thing to do.

And I think if you step back and look at the whole disarmament thing from '91 to '03, it's pretty clear there are/were d mn few countries that actually want to do the "right thing".

So, if it means keeping the good will of say the French..... well, again, we haven't lost much, IMO. Because there was never anything of substance to lose there. IMO.

Bottom line is that all of fears of PNAC proposals is based on the assumption that they will get those things done.

My view is that any rational review of how Congress works makesit highly unlikely that much will get done at all.

How long have they been talking about reforming the Income tax laws? Revising Medicare?

They talk a lot. They do little. I doubt PNAC would be able to change that if they had 10X as many moles in appointive office.

Sorry, I'm just not going to lose sleep over PNAC.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #68 on: April 28, 2003, 06:53:47 PM »
Since America is the last super-power, does that mean we win and get all the toys?

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #69 on: April 28, 2003, 07:27:43 PM »
"Many countries with Anti-United States sentiments enjoy the freedoms they have today because of us. So go ahead and keep bashing away at the United States... Unlike the Romans, we will still be here to tolerate your short lived gratitude now turned to disdain. We won't hang you for expressing your hatred, nor will we come rolling in and occupy your country and make you wave American flags.
"
the 100s of thousands of people in central america that have been killed by US trained death squads and the millions of people in indo china killed by the US and its surrogates  for wanting a goverment that represented their wishes instead of one that represented US intrests  thank you for your sacrifices in their honor.

I was scared for a while there. I thought this was saying there were no more super bowls. Just more brainwashed US citizens though.

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #70 on: April 28, 2003, 07:44:52 PM »
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Originally posted by Toad
Haven't given them up yet but we've reduced them significantly since the Cold War. Obviously, we aren't going to give them up when the genocidal dictatorships like NK are working as hard as they can to get their own.

And I have this feeling even you don't want us to give them up while the Kim Jong Il's of the world have them.

Normal world? Look back over the last 200 years and remind me of when there wasn't fighting going on somewhere in the world. Sadly, it looks like armed conflict is a "normal" state of the world.

Kinda silly to think otherwise.


The people that waged those wars over the last 200 years have been looked on since as aggressors and mass murderers. Kind of silly to not think of the current US regime as any different.
Who do you want to associate yourself with then Toad. Nepoleons France? Bismarks Germany? Hitlers Germany? Tojos Japan?.
You are correct though. Nothing has changed. Just for some reason Americans that support the current regime in Washington think that the definition of Aggressor has changed to make them feel better about themselves.

This last invasion ended up better then it could have. But it could have ended like Vietnam. With 3-4million dead locals and the US in 30 years of denial about the crimes they commited their.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #71 on: April 28, 2003, 07:45:40 PM »
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Originally posted by Pongo
""
the 100s of thousands of people in central america that have been killed by US trained death squads and the millions of people in indo china killed by the US and its surrogates  for wanting a goverment that represented their wishes instead of one that represented US intrests  thank you for your sacrifices in their honor.

I was scared for a while there. I thought this was saying there were no more super bowls. Just more brainwashed US citizens though.


Yep, America is evil. We should turn ourselves in to the world court at once. Then when America and all of it's evil is gone, a nice country can take our place in the world.

Maybe the world will get lucky and a country like  China can take our place. Then there will be true peace and harmony.

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #72 on: April 28, 2003, 08:03:21 PM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
i don't believe that swoop is against huge variety at cheap prices


Greater variety, but less choice.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #73 on: April 28, 2003, 08:16:06 PM »
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Greater variety, but less choice.



wow!

Greater variety means less choice?  hmmmmm


I have a new quote!

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #74 on: April 28, 2003, 08:16:16 PM »
Its funny how peoples hatrered for the USA comes out if you give them a chance... Especially those useless envious canadians.. :p