Author Topic: AH IL-2 armour weakness (Read 1283 times)

LUPO · « **on:** April 30, 2003, 05:05:33 AM »

Grendel posted a very interesting interwiew with mr.
Hemmo Leino. Fokker D.XXI, Morane-Saulnier 406, Messerschmitt 109 ace. 11 official victories. 20+ recently confirmed.

After the following statement I was confirmed that our Aces High IL2 is really too weak.

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Q. Do you remember from which angle you used to shoot at a target?
A. It depended on the plane you were shooting at. The Il-2 had to be fired at from the side, you could not down him from any other direction. It was in vain to shoot a well armoured plane like the Il-2 from behind. You could not accomplish anything.

Your opinion?

for the entire post look at Hemmo Leino

Xjazz · « **Reply #1 on:** April 30, 2003, 06:09:03 AM »

Ciao Lupo,

AH IL2 too is too weak.

Im sure people would fly much more IL2 "The Flying Tank" Sturmovik if it could sustain better mg / small cannon fire

IMHO

Kweassa · « **Reply #2 on:** April 30, 2003, 06:51:11 AM »

The IL-2 just barely holds together to withstand strafing runs against about four Panzer/Tiger tanks. Usually during the attack the engine oil is most easily damaged, and by the time you strafe and disable about four tanks, you have to rtb.

If you get really really unlucky, the Panzer/Tiger pintle guns will tear out the tail or wingtips. For anti-tank purposes, well, I guess it can be said that the IL-2 is just barely tough enough to get the job done.

Against M-16s or Ostwinds, it is toast.

thrila · « **Reply #3 on:** April 30, 2003, 07:47:27 AM »

I find quite the opposite, i fly the il2 a lot and it's one tough bird IMO. Very often i will take 37mm hit from an osite and survive- i used to think they were one off miracles but, it happens so often (50/50 at least for me) i can only vouch for the toughness of the il2.

If there are no osties/m16's about the il2 will murder all gv's in the area. Yes the il2 does suck against them but what do you expect? The il2 is a large, slow moving target it's bound to get shotdown- as they did in real life.

Here are my stats this tour against panzers in the il2-

60 kills 1 death- and that death was only a couple of days ago when i rammed the floor in a dive cause my fps died. Someone in b17's did a low level drop against gv's and all the bombs hitting the floor killed my framerate. I'm no miracle worker- if i can do this anyone can

The il2 in AH does what it's designed for- to kill panzers. I have no problems how it is modelled.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #4 on:** April 30, 2003, 11:33:35 AM »

I feel Il2 is too weak in AH, single 50cal on GV do too much damage IMHO vs IL2.

Il2 should avoid Osties/M16 unless they are firing on another target.

The best tactic for Il2 when working base defense in concert with friendly panzers is for the IL2 to disble enemy panzers using its 23mm cannon before they get in range to engage friendlies and leave the AA vehicles to your own tanks. Il2 should alose engage any LVT/M3/M8 fast moving softskin.

The great thing about using IL2 to neutralize enemy panzers before they get in range is that you know that you are 100% succesful if the Pz4 is smoking because you ether killed the gun or the engine and the tank cant fight or cant get to the fight.

Tigers are essentally invulnerable to the 23mm cannon, but PzIV absolutely cannot resist 23mm fire.

hogenbor · « **Reply #5 on:** April 30, 2003, 11:46:16 AM »

I am not really an IL2 flier and even less of a GV-driver, but I do think it's fairly surviveable. And I even managed to kill some panzers with its 250kg bombs. And again, if I can do it, anyone can. Survived two 37mm hits in my last sortie but the third was too much

I don't know exactly how 'invulnerable' the Tiger is to 23mm cannon... I was strafing one after trying to hit it with 1 250kg bomb, three rockets and 5 or 6 strafing runs with the cannon (top/sides). I hit it many times with the cannon but I might have hit it with rockets and bombs too... and panzers were firing at it as well. Got the kill though.

moot · « **Reply #6 on:** April 30, 2003, 03:26:06 PM »

AH models angle of impact in ballistic model? have never seen or heard of rounds bouncing off, which happens often in Il2 (151/20 for example).

Batz · « **Reply #7 on:** April 30, 2003, 06:52:30 PM »

The il2 wasnt a "tank" most of its armor was 6mm or so. LW pilots made careers out of smacking il2s out of the sky.....

Hauptmann Joachim Brendel shot down 88 il2s.

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/stormovik.html

lipfert shot down 2 il2s on several occassions

148. ----> 23.10.1944 ----> 15:31 ----> Il-2 ----> II./JG52 Solnok
149. ----> 23.10.1944 ----> 15:32 ----> Il-2 ----> II./JG52 Solnok

Then again

155. ---->17.11.1944 ----> 11:05 Il-2 ----> II./JG52 Jaszbereny
156. ---->17.11.1944 ----> 11:10 Il-2 ----> II./JG52 Jaszbereny

Then again

169. ----> 4.1.1945 8:26 ----> Il-2 ----> II./JG52 Tarjan
170. ----> 4.1.1945 8:28 ----> Il-2 ----> II./JG52 Tarjan

I could post varios lw kill claim that show multiple il2s downed 1 right after another.

Moot is right that in AH any bullet that hits at any angle and location contributes equally to the overall damage. In AH the tail section of most aircraft pop off rather easily. But in il2 and il2 FB the 20mm and LMGs (7.6, 12.7 13mm etc) are nerfed and are under modelled.

The real IL2 has its "armor" around its pilot and engine. Its wings, tail gunner and tail were weak. Inreality firing from dead 6 was a low percentage shot and any "offangle attack" gave you a larger target to shoot at.

The Morane-Saulnier 406 that Hemmo Leino:

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The rat guns were miserably weak and the mags were of small capacity, it was not much good for anything. But the Berezina heavy machine gun was good.

One 20 mm Hispano-Suiza HS-9 or 404 cannon with 60 bullets; two 7,5 mm MAC 1934 machine-guns with 300 bullets each.

As you can see it isnt heavily armed and has limited ammo. To make the most effiecient use of this ammo you would want high percentage shots. In the game Il2 and FB the easiest way to kill and il2 is to shoot the oil cooler underneath the center fuselage. Hit it their a few good times and it smokes, hit it again it burns.

The only real problem the il2s in AH have is the ease at which it gets hit by gv mgs, but all ah planes share this problem. GVs are easy to spot and kill so a gameplay concession has been made to allow them some prospect of defense against air attack. Unfortunately any hizooka or 50cal plane is a much better anti gv / attack aircraft due to their ammo load, the range at which they can kill and their unrestricted "overload" ord carrying capability.

Taking 1 question and applying that answer to justify some problem in AH is a bit simplistic. The il2 may very well be "weaker" then in rl but I dont think theres evidence enough to support that.

Especially since those lw pilot who were lucky enough to stumble upon them could easily pad their kill claims.

No plane was ever a tank..........

LUPO · « **Reply #8 on:** April 30, 2003, 07:30:40 PM »

Tks everybody for replies. Very interesting indeed.

gatso · « **Reply #9 on:** April 30, 2003, 08:05:24 PM »

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Originally posted by Batz
Unfortunately any hizooka or 50cal plane is a much better anti gv / attack aircraft due to their ammo load, the range at which they can kill and their unrestricted "overload" ord carrying capability.

1/2 right. Ord is useful, so a P38 or P47 very definately is. 50cals or 20mm unless from directly overhead are useless. the IL2 has become the BEST aircraft for popping pnzr's and Osty's from any angle IMHO.

For a demo. Shortly after the latest update I found an nme pnzr AFK at a spawn point. Upped an M16. Pumped 4000 rounds into the pnzr. No damage. upped an m3 with GV supplies. dropped em all at the spawn point. Upped an M16 again. Pumped over 16,000 rounds into the pnzr. Killed both tracks and posibly the engine. It did my Hit % against nme's a great deal of good but when the pnzr came back from AFK he rotated his turret and picked me off in 1 shot. 16,000:1.

50cal whiners are just that... Whiners. I've not killed a pnzr since the update with 50 cal. osty turrets, yes. Outright kills, no.

Gatso

Batz · « **Reply #10 on:** April 30, 2003, 11:24:40 PM »

I have played long enough and have spent time in every 50 cal and Hizooka armed plane there is. I can kill gvs with 50 cals and hizookas at further a range and easier then any other calibre.

Save the whiner BS for some one who cares. Its a tested fact and if you dont believe do your own tests. Dont offer some exceptional anecdotal evidence as the norm.

The guns on the gvs are enhanced for gameplay.

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any hizooka or 50cal plane is a much better anti gv / attack aircraft due to their ammo load, the range at which they can kill and their unrestricted "overload" ord carrying capability.

100% factual.......

Pongo · « **Reply #11 on:** May 01, 2003, 12:25:45 AM »

Many of those IL2s that people racked up so easy had no rear gunner. The IL2 was acctually a very low servivability plane befor it got a rear gunner.

Karnak · « **Reply #12 on:** May 01, 2003, 01:05:15 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Batz
I have played long enough and have spent time in every 50 cal and Hizooka armed plane there is. I can kill gvs with 50 cals and hizookas at further a range and easier then any other calibre.

Save the whiner BS for some one who cares. Its a tested fact and if you dont believe do your own tests. Dont offer some exceptional anecdotal evidence as the norm.

The guns on the gvs are enhanced for gameplay.

100% factual.......

I'd like to see a recent film of you doing so.

I can kill panzers with the quad hispano armament on the Mossie, but it takes a lot of work. I haven't even dented a tank with 50 cals.

By far the best panzer killer, in my experience, is the Il-2, although the P-38L might be better due to its 10 rockets and two 1000lb bombs. The P-38's guns aren't going to kill any panzers.

Batz · « **Reply #13 on:** May 01, 2003, 02:06:49 AM »

That was covered last time you said that Karnak. Atleast 2 other replies contradicted your experience.

The reason the pnzr was "easier" to kill before the patch was because there was a huge whole in it where the turret met the chasis. 303s could kill it then. That means all rounds will now be "harder" to kill it. It doesnt mean that now 50 cals and hispanos are not the "easiest" types of rounds to kill them with.

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Many of those IL2s that people racked up so easy had no rear gunner. The IL2 was acctually a very low servivability plane befor it got a rear gunner.

No Pongo look at the dates of Lipfert's multi kills. I will dig up Brendels if you really need evidence that the il2 rear gunner was as ineffective as any other in any other plane.

The il2 was less susceptible to small calibre ground fire and ack burst. It wasnt a flying tank that couldnt be killed.

Batz · « **Reply #14 on:** May 01, 2003, 03:43:59 AM »

well hell here Tony Woods Kill claims Eastern Front Vol 4. 1944. January - June

http://www.luftboard.ndo.co.uk/ost44janjun.pdf

its a pdf file.

Seems to me from a brief scan the il2 would be 1 of the last planes I would want to be in.

YMMV