Author Topic: Einstein and Autism  (Read 1800 times)

Offline miko2d

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Einstein and Autism
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2003, 05:25:04 PM »
This article is plain silly.

 1. Autism is defined in the article as a character trait that inhibits  interaction with other people.
 Even assuming autism is treatable - I don't know if it is, why would improvement in ability to communicate with people reduce abilities in other areas? Why would Einstein become less smart if he was more of a people's person?

 True, if he spent more time with people, he could have possibly spent less time on research. But for smart people the amount of time spent on a problem is not directly related to the outcome - that is discounting the fact that 99% of thinking is done subconsiously. One does not steadily advance to discovery by thinking about it "repetitively (or even obsessively)". One just thinks about it whenever he feels like it and then at some moment - even while the person is asleep - he gets a revelation.
 If anything, talking to other scientists more may help a scientist to put his thoughts in order.
 Also, the brain often works in such way that a person cannot make much progress being obsessed with a problem but once a distraction is provided - in the form of human contact or otherwise, the progress may occur rapidly.

 Basically, there is no merit to the idea that Einstein would have been less smart if his alleged autism were cured. He could have chosen a different career path but by the same token some people could have chosen a life of science if they were not autistic.

 There were plenty of geniuses with great personalities which had no problem dealing with people.  Outstanding physicists, chess players, etc. are known for their sense of humor and the books with antologies of their jokes are great read.


 2. What would have become of him if his parents had recognized the signs and sought intervention?  How much of his greatness may have been jeopardized?

 Even if curing him of autism would somehow make him less of a genius and deprive him of scientific "greatness", why does the author think he would have been less happy with his life? If I remember correctly, he did not have any children of his own while he produced valuable things for the benefit of others.
 Does greatness of being a genius compensate for misery of dying childless? Maybe yes, maybe no - even Einstein does not know the answer, not being able to try each life. Certainly not the author of that silly article.

 Would I agree to become the next Einstein and also cure all ills of this world in exchange for losing my son and not having more children? Not a chance.


 One thing that is often confused with autism in very smart people is inability to tolerate or find common interests with dumb people. So he did not like to chat with his neighbours or even relatives, prefering to go to the office any chance he got. That does not mean he was working there all the time - maybe just talking and playing cards with other geniuses.
 I am quite a people's person myself but during my military service I used to be known as antisicial. I am not a genius, but 30 point gap in IQ reduces desire fro human company quiote a lot.


 miko

Offline GrimCO

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Einstein and Autism
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2003, 05:36:25 PM »
Miko,

Einstein was VERY obsessive about his work. I've read books written by the man himself. He had no other scientists to talk to about his theories because they thought he was a lunatic. Time slowing down? Gravity not being an attractive force between objects? Space being bent? It was ludicrous at the time, and shook the very foundations of science when his theories were proven true. You've got to remember that this man absolutely stunk at mathematics and came up with his theories on pure thought alone. He had to have a mathmetician work out the equations, and only learned the math of his own theories later in life.  

I have no argument with you about whether "curing" his autism and anti-social behavior would have been beneficial to him personally or not. I cannot come up with a good answer for that one. But I do believe had they messed with his psyche, his theories would not have come into being.

Would that have been better for him personally? Possibly so.

I just don't know.

Offline type_char

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« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2003, 05:38:20 PM »
What? I thought Einstien was Mark Twain?

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2003, 05:55:58 PM »
GrimCO: Einstein was VERY obsessive about his work. I've read books written by the man himself. He had no other scientists to talk to about his theories because they thought he was a lunatic.

 I read his books too. He never said he immersed himself into his work in order to avoid dealing with people - at least I do not remember getting that impression.
 He was also quite interested in the issues of humanity, loved being with children, appreciated a good joke, etc.

But I do believe had they messed with his psyche, his theories would not have come into being.

 Never fear. Someone else's would have come up with them within a few years. What Einstein started with on the road to special relativity was solving well-known problem of Lorenz Transformations prompted in turn by Michelson experiment.

 At worst, the development of technology improved accuracy of devices so much that the relativistic effects would have been discovered soon and explanations sought - like the sum of the angles of a triangle not quite equal up to 180 or precession of Mercury's orbit.

 miko

Offline GrimCO

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« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2003, 06:12:26 PM »
Explanations are still sought to this day...

If space is curved by the mass of objects, what actually is being curved and what is space composed of? The ether? Still no explanation.

Would another scientist have come up with the same theory as Einstein because there were discrepencies discovered related to unknown relativistic causes? Possibly, but not probably.

We experience many phenomenon to this day that are unexplained by quantum mechanics and physics. Something is missing, and my money is on a radical thinker rather than an equation expert figuring it out.

Einstein was a lone soldier of thinking during his time, and it was this very quality that allowed him to theorize on relativity. I'm not so certain someone else would have "figured it out" within a few years without sharing the thought processes of a brain that was wired wrong.

I'm guessing membrane theory is on the right track. The right "crazy" guy just hasn't come along yet to figure it all out.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2003, 06:12:38 PM »
Very interesting stuff Grim.

I was a science teacher at an experimental school for the developmentally disabled. Very hippyish back in the 70's, but we thought everyone needed to learn about heir environment / world / universe etc. I was asked to develop a science program for adults that ranged from 1st grade level to Jr. College.

One of my students was a savant. She would ask you your birthdate, and immediately tell you how old you were to the day, as well as the day of the week you were born, but she couldn't add 3 + 3 without using her fingers.

Offline GrimCO

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Einstein and Autism
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2003, 06:21:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
Very interesting stuff Grim.

I was a science teacher at an experimental school for the developmentally disabled. Very hippyish back in the 70's, but we thought everyone needed to learn about heir environment / world / universe etc. I was asked to develop a science program for adults that ranged from 1st grade level to Jr. College.

One of my students was a savant. She would ask you your birthdate, and immediately tell you how old you were to the day, as well as the day of the week you were born, but she couldn't add 3 + 3 without using her fingers.


First of all, a big to you for teaching. I think that is the most admirable profession in the entire world. If I had the opportunity to go back and do it all over again knowing what I know now, that is the career I would have chosen.

It's just amazing to me that with all the modern technology we have these days, we can't figure out how the human mind works. It is truly an amazing computer with a "mind" of it's own.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2003, 10:40:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GrimCO
Explanations are still sought to this day...

The right "crazy" guy just hasn't come along yet to figure it all out.


I understand it all completely...  I just can't figure out how to explain it to anyone else....dammit
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Offline GrimCO

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« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2003, 08:18:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
I understand it all completely...  I just can't figure out how to explain it to anyone else....dammit


LOL Holden,

Frustrating isn't it!

BTW, any relation to Phil McKraken?

Offline SLO

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« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2003, 09:08:09 AM »
the genius to crazy is a hazy gray zone.......

some say ya got to be crazy to be a genius:D

some of the most prolific serial killers where actually considered very smart fellows.....

Einstien was a genius.....but his form of genius was thinking.....not everyday life.....ask his wife....only at the end of his days did he start taken care of his family.....in that spectrum...he sucked.....depends on your perspective :D

Offline miko2d

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Einstein and Autism
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2003, 09:08:22 AM »
GrimCO: Explanations are still sought to this day...
If space is curved by the mass of objects, what actually is being curved and what is space composed of?


 Often right questions are theoretically proven to have no answers. But when you ask the wrong questions to start with, you are certain not to get any meaningfull answers.

 The categories - and words in human languages - like space, time, "object", matter, "composed", etc. are inherent to human mind. They - language and concepts - evolved spontaneously as a result of darwinian and memetic selection in such way that allowed the certain breed of apes to survive and prosper.
 In order to do so, those concepts must have somewhat matched the reality those apes inhabited - the reality of sense qualities.

 At the same time there was no reason to believe that those concepts have any meaning when it comes to the real nature of the world. They are dealing with "world" way beyong that affecting evolution if primates, so they have to come up with radically new concepts.

 Scientists often draw some analogies for popular representation of science - like comparing vacuum with emptyness or electron with a ball flying circles around the nucleus or time with distance, or interaction with movement, etc. That does not mean things are really like that and that scientists think like that doing their research.
 In many cases they can find no possible analogy to be expressed in the human mind terms and all we have are systems of equations.


midnight Target: One of my students was a savant. She would ask you your birthdate, and immediately tell you how old you were to the day, as well as the day of the week you were born, but she couldn't add 3 + 3 without using her fingers.

 The case of so called "idiot-savants" is really one of mental deficiency that gives affected people access to certain abilities at the expense of the higher-level abilities - unlike autism which is a lack of some abilities irrelevant to the function of other.

 The miraculous things that savants do - intricate calculations, memorisation and reproduction of images, memory retrieval, etc. - we all have that. Our brains are extremely sophisticated computing devices that work 99.9999% of the time without us noticing.
 There was good reason why we evolved in such way that we do not have concious access to those resources. In some people that layer of concious control is broken.
 They can draw a picture like the best camera - not in a way a human would do it from general outline through detalisation, but like a mechanical prolling device - or compute something quick because they have short-circuit from conciousness into the relevant brain structure. But they have trouble ordering the other parts of their brain around.


GrimCO: It's just amazing to me that with all the modern technology we have these days, we can't figure out how the human mind works. It is truly an amazing computer with a "mind" of it's own.

 According to some theoretical considerations, the problem of human mind understanding it's own operation is unsolveable. In the very least, it would involve a paradox of having to know more than one knows at any given moment.
 Another one is that our concious thinking is just a miniscule fraction of our mind's though process.

 We can understand some basic principles of mind's operation. We could conceivably write some detailed explanations of human mind working that would be model of that mind on paper and even allow to reproduce it in a computer. Even map every atom or cell, etc. But a human mind still would not be able to comprehend that as a whole.

 miko
« Last Edit: May 13, 2003, 09:13:37 AM by miko2d »

Offline SLO

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« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2003, 09:32:18 AM »
lol grim.....so many question so few answers.


1st - de brain.....actually we do now how it works.....the real question that doc's don't know is how does the SUB-CONCIOUS work.

2- time is relative(dependin on distance)......space is composed of Helium(why are sun is big)....Hydrogen(fuel for our sun).....and many more kinds of Atoms.....some are even anti-matter.....when they say space is curved....its not actually curved...its the objects(planets...stars) gravitational pull that curves it.....


3rd an autistic playin chopin on the piano.....mozart playin piano at the age of 5.....freak of nature.....or natures way of sayin...figure that one out:D

Offline AKIron

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Einstein and Autism
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2003, 11:17:26 AM »
They understand a few of the basics concerning how the brain works. To say they understand how it works is stretching it.

Something to ponder when you're drunk/stoned/nothing better to do: How does the brain store music? Is it more like a wav or a midi file?
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2003, 12:51:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by OIO
This may be a stupid suggestion/question, but has he ever had a dog?

BTW, my name is Daniel too.

Coolest name ever!


Actually, we've got two dogs;), and I agree with you on the name.  As for your more basic question, we're trying to address both.  We want Dan to realize his full potential, but we don't want him to be a recluse either.  All we can do is the best we can; the rest we leave in God's hands.  

Our own (my wife and I's) frustration is nothing compared to what our son must deal with.  One might argue that that frustration itself could be an inhibition to him reaching that full potential.  Had Einstein understood early on what made him different, and developed a bit more social skill to deal with it, what heights might he have attained?  Is it possible he could have won over more of his collegues earlier in his career, when the energizing effect of group enthusiam and synergy of great minds working together, rather than in isolation, could have produced truly miraculaous breakthroughs?  Who knows?
Sabre
"The urge to save humanity almost always masks a desire to rule it."

Offline miko2d

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Einstein and Autism
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2003, 02:07:28 PM »
Sabre: Had Einstein understood early on what made him different, and developed a bit more social skill to deal with it, what heights might he have attained?

 Or he could have turned his life into sheer hell by trying to behave contrary to his nature rather than find a lifestyle that fit his nature.

We want Dan to realize his full potential, but we don't want him to be a recluse either. All we can do is the best we can; the rest we leave in God's hands.

 Sabre, listen critically to those that would advise pushing your child further than he can go. He may be willing to do more for you and your wife that is good for him. God alone knows his "full potential", so if recluse is what he is, the optimal strategy may be equipping him to be the greatest and happiest recluse that ever lived.

 Oh, yeah - you can never have too many dogs! :)

 Good luck.
 miko