Author Topic: The "Wing"  (Read 1529 times)

Offline davidpt40

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« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2003, 08:17:35 AM »
Amazing.  I believe the majority of the Ho-229 was constructed out of wood.  Can't believe its still in such good shape.  

So theres gotta be a reason that there are not many flying wings around, even today.  Are they less maneuverable than conventional aircraft?  Produce a larger radar signature?  Crash too much?

It would have been very interesting for the U.S. to have pursued the flying wing concept instead of conventional jets (such as the P-80 and F86).

Offline AGJV44_Rot 1

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« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2003, 10:43:32 AM »
All my pictures are in my books now I don't have a scanner yet (next wish list) and I would love to share the 8-9 rolls of film brady and i shot while we were there.  And every plane there is supposed to be restored just takes a lot of money.

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2003, 12:09:55 PM »
Some guy over at UBI is claiming the Horten had an ejection seat fitted. Mostly because the pilot would have been toasted bt the exhaust from the engines if he bailed normally.

Is this true?

Offline gatso

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« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2003, 12:15:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AGJV44_Rot 1
...And every plane there is supposed to be restored just takes a lot of money.


Yeah, no kiddin. Lots of Time and Money if you want to do a proper job. Wood generally can be a blessing or a curse. Depends on what sort of state it's in and I guess there aren't exacly boxes of Horten flying wing spares just lying around so there could be all sorts of problems with getting it in one piece and safe for viewing. I hope they get round to it before it deteriorates too badly though. It'd be a great shame if it were never to go on public display again.

3 1/2 years so far on 'mine', maybe another 4 or so to go before wheels-up IF nothing unexpected comes up in the meantime.
http://www.project-vampire.org.uk/pictures/pr_vampire.jpg
I'm the bloke in the cockpit btw.

Gatso

Offline Shiva

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« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2003, 12:18:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by davidpt40
Amazing.  I believe the majority of the Ho-229 was constructed out of wood.  Can't believe its still in such good shape.


IIRC, the facility where the Ho-229 was being developed and tested was overrun quickly by Allied troops, where they found the third prototype being prepared for flight testing; that plane is the one at Garber. So it never had any service time to start its deterioration, and got a basic preservation job done on it immediately. By now, it would take some serious work to put it into flying condition, and being only the third prototype would probably not be very safe to fly.

(more historical information at http://www.hotel.wineasy.se/ipms/stuff_eng_detail_hoix.htm and http://www.geocities.com/nedu537/go229/)

Quote
So theres gotta be a reason that there are not many flying wings around, even today.  Are they less maneuverable than conventional aircraft?  Produce a larger radar signature?  Crash too much?


The US flying-wing design program was for the B-35 (later, as a jet version, the B-49); high maneuverability wasn't a big issue for a bomber. In fact, Northrop had a contract for two proof-of-concept aircraft, 13 prototypes, and 200 series aircraft -- all before the first airframe ever flew (welcome to wartime procurement); limited manpower and production space availability delayed the first prototype until 1946.



A pure flying-wing design will have less maneuverability than a design with vertical control surfaces; the XB-35 and YB-49 designs suffered from a lack of yaw stability due to the relatively primitive state of flight-control assistance available in the 1940s; Northrop was never able to satisfactorily address the yaw stability problem; it took too long for the plane to settle into stable flight -- direct bombing competitions between the XB-35 and the WWII era B-29 indicated that without an auto pilot the XB-35 could not fly a stable bombing run in less that 4 minutes while a B-29 flown manually consistently set up bombing runs under 45 seconds.

A flying-wing design, with the reduction in the number of reflecting surfaces, is inherently much stealthier than a conventional aircraft design; the XB-35 and YB-49 demonstrated this repeatedly, with ground radar failing to pick up the aircraft until they were virtually on top of the field -- and this with no attempt to reduce its radar cross-section.

Although test pilot Glenn Edwards was killed flying the second YB-49, what actually killed the flying-wing program were high procurement costs, reliability and maintenance problems, the inability of the airframe to carry the Air Force's stockpiled nuclear and large earth-penetrating bombs, and the fact that even if the time and effort had been put into rectifying these problems, the B-49 would have been outclassed by newer, higher-performance aircraft like the B-52 which was then under development.

Quote
It would have been very interesting for the U.S. to have pursued the flying wing concept instead of conventional jets (such as the P-80 and F86).


Unfortunately, they never solved the yaw control problem, and the requirements that the Air Force placed on the design (the Fat Man nuclear bombs wouldn't fit in the aircraft's bomb bays, requiring external fairings, for example) pretty much killed the program, and without a military development contract, Northrop couldn't afford to work on a civilian transport version -- which functionally eliminated flying wings from the skies of America.

Offline Hawklore

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« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2003, 07:41:57 AM »
Awesome information guys, Thanks.
"So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart.
Trouble no one about their religion;
respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours.
Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life." - Chief Tecumseh

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2003, 08:45:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MiloMorai
Some guy over at UBI is claiming the Horten had an ejection seat fitted. Mostly because the pilot would have been toasted by the exhaust from the engines if he bailed normally.

Is this true?


Well is it? someone???

Offline Edantes

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« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2003, 04:38:39 PM »
Yes, they did have an ejection seat.  (At least, so I have read.  Take it for what it is worth.)

However, I think it was more because of the speed the aircraft was to fly at, than the exaust heat.    

~Luke

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2003, 03:08:00 AM »
FWIW
http://pages.prodigy.net/jputtputt/northrup%20patent.htm

Jack Northrop developed his ideas for two decades in model form before....

N-1M (Northrop Model 1 Mockup)

Conventional wooden construction comprising a tailless true flying wing of 38-foot span; the first of its kind to appear in the U.S.; development began in July 1939, with first flight in July 1940.

Drooped wingtips were ground adjustable, and sweep could be varied by use of v-shape inserts where the outer wing panels joined the mid-wing/fuselage. Elevons operated in synchrony for pitch control and differentially for roll control. Rudder control for yaw was provided by wingtip mounted split clamshell flaps that opened to create drag on the desired side.

Powered by two 65-hp Lycoming O-145 four-cylinder air-cooled engines connected to propellers by long shafts; the airplane was underpowered. Six-cylinder Franklins replaced the first engines and provided 117 hp each. The Franklins tended to overheat, but the generally successful demonstration of the N-1M led to interest by the Army Air Corps in further development.

This aircraft is now on display following restoration at the NASM Garber facility.

Parallel development occurs frequently as possibilities allow.  Newton and Leibnitz developed Calculus independantly, within just a few years of each other.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2003, 03:13:13 AM by Holden McGroin »
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline gatso

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« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2003, 08:26:08 AM »
The Westland-Hill Pterodactyl tailless development aircraft first flew under power in 1924, last flight of the MkV version was somewhere after May 1934.

Most flew with wingtip rudders for yaw control although I belive there to be at least a trial period using some sort of trailing edge flaps. I think we beat at least Northrop to it, not sure about Horten or anybody else. ;)

There's one on display in the Science Museum in London. Unfortunately there's not many pics of it out there because it's not 'sexy'. This was the only one I was able to find on the web.



Gatso

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2003, 10:14:31 AM »

Offline OIO

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« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2003, 10:42:50 AM »

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2003, 06:02:20 PM »
Hi Milo,

>Does anyone know more about Igo Etrich (1879 - 1967) and his wing of 1908.

>http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/etrich.html

The link you provided has a lot of good information already :-)

I'd add that Etrich's "Taube" (using the Zamonia wing but with a conventional tail) became a much-copied "standard" type just before WW1. Rumpler probably made more money of the Taube than Etrich did, but others copied it as well.

The Taube was very popular and is well-known even today, but I was quite suprised to see that Etrich started with tail-less designs :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline gofaster

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« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2003, 09:40:00 AM »
I got a kick out of following this thread. I recently won a 1/72 scale model of the Horten flying wing in an eBay auction.  I was going to kit-bash it into a UFO, but now I may just build it up like the German wonder-weapon it really was!

Cool links, guys. Thanks.

Offline MANDOBLE

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« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2003, 01:51:46 PM »