Might as well get my other grip out of my system........

[Toad]

OK, you know how a pilot can get wounded? You know how a bomber gunner can be killed/gun disabled?

How come brave pixel-men can stand in an open turret hatch and not get killed? I don't mind them manning their gun and shooting back but it seems to me that a lot more of them would get shredded than do now.

Case in point, a tiger at A13 tonite. He was sitting near a town and multiple fighters were making continuous passes trying clear the town. He shot down several with his pintle gun. Fine But shouldn't the guy manning the gun be extremely vulnerable? I think so. He should actually die as easy as a paratrooper scampering for the map room. But they don't.

Secondarily, I know armor is pretty well bullet proof against aircraft projectile weapons but it sure seems like the .30 pintle guns are extremely deadly to aircraft. I think that should be looked into as well.

Thank you, and good night.

[Tarmac]

Would be cool if there was a command to unbutton your tank (doors open?), to allow it to fire the pintle gun and get better views while driving.  While unbuttoned, it'd be more vulnerable to small projectiles... strafing could kill the commander (top MG gunner), and possibly the driver.  

And if you buttoned up to increase survivability in combat, you'd lose most of your visability.

[SirLoin]

it is GOOD to vent.

[Trikky]

Talking of buttoned up, you know you can already look through the drivers hatch on Ostys and Panzers? Ample use of the Page Up button and your kneck grows about 5 feet.

[Hooligan]

Speaking of which:

My understanding is that the armored turret sites of the Ostys fold down and act as a platform for the gun crew when the gun is in action.  Similarly the M3 gun crew should be almost completely exposed to aircraft fire.

Vehicles in AH seem to always get the advantages of having exposed crew members (i.e. being able to fire AA weapons), without having these crew members be extremely vulnerable.  It seems to me that vehicle AA crews should die much more easily in this game that they do.

Hopefully this will change in AH2...

Hooligan

[Shiva]

Originally posted by Hooligan
My understanding is that the armored turret sites of the Ostys fold down and act as a platform for the gun crew when the gun is in action.  Similarly the M3 gun crew should be almost completely exposed to aircraft fire.

You're thinking of the 3.7cm FlaK auf Fahrgestell Panzerkampfwagen IV (Sf)  SdKfz 161/3 'Möbelwagen', which had a square slab-sided superstructure which had to be folded down for the gun to be used:



The flakpanzer modelled in the game is the 3.7cm Flak 43 auf Sfl PzKpfw IV 'Ostwind', which had a polygonal turret built around the gun mounting that rotated with the gun, providing splinter protection for the crew while operating the gun.

[MRPLUTO]

Perhaps making it much, much easier to knock out the pintle gun would solve this problem.  That might be something that is easily adjusted.

The more desirable solution would be tarmac's, but there's no chance of that until AH2.

MRPLUTO VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~ MAG-33

[Swoop]

Making it easy to kill a pintle gunner would mean that pretty much all GVs have no defense against low flying aircraft.  Now if the gunner had the option to be inside the tank with the hatch closed (and safe) or be up top manning the gun (and therefore vulnerable) then......well that's more something for AH2 cos GVs would have to be re-done.

[Kweassa]

Just make all hand held guns vibrate and shake, including buff guns.

 Let's see how easy it is to damage/kill a plane with the pintle guns by landing hits from 1.2k out... all concentrated on a pin-point area of the radiator/cockpit/oil coolers, or rip out the entire tail structure... when the guns shakes around like it is supposed to.

 A good benchmark system would be the ones used in military FPS games - such as Rainbow6 or Rogue Spear series.

 When you hold the trigger down and just empty the clip, the longer you hold down that trigger, the bigger the shakes and oscilations become - resulting in incredibly scattering bullets.

 Now, a pintle gun, which is mounted and held by two hands, won't exactly be like automatic rifles.. but still, I think it's worth a shot for satisfying both parties on this debate.

[beet1e]

HTC has provided us with an excellent game. We have the choice to fly bombers, or fighters as jabo bombers or simply as lite fighters. We have troop delivery missions to fly by C47, or by surface in the M3. We even have GVs, boats, field guns, and can join a bomber aircraft as a gunner. I have flown ALL these types of mission. However, it seems that some fly only a subset - the fighters, and do not appreciate the difficulties of the other types of mission.

Clearly, this is a GAME and gaming concessions are needed in this GAME. We need to have all usable aircraft instruments visible on a flat screen, with the result that the cockpits do not accurately resemble those of the real WW2 planes. Fair enough, and we do not hear complaints about it. As to the pintle gun on the PNZR and TIGR, it's there as a defence, and also can be used against troops that are running towards the tower or troops that have been dropped by a newbie goon.

Why should the fight guys have an issue with the pintle? If they know it hurts, they can keep away from it - after all, GVs are only for hitting strategic targets and other GVs.

I fully agree with Swoop. Without the pintle, the PNZR and TIGR would be defenceless against low flying aircraft in this GAME. I don't know if PNZR tanks ever had to engage fighters in the real WW2, and whether the pintle gun was used in any such engagement. But it doesn't matter. This is a game. The pintle gun offers only a limited field of coverage both horizontally and vertically, and even as things stand right now cannot be brought to bear upon a target directly overhead. If an aircraft obliges the PNZR/TIGR pilot by flying low and straight at him, a long sustained burst will disable the aircraft in some way.

Are airaraft pilots afraid of the pintle? No. I submit two short films for your consideration. In both, you will see a low flying aircraft making repeated passes on one of more GVs. In the pintlekill.ahf film, an A20 attacks not one but TWO PNZRs sitting side by side. After repeated passes, not all shown on my film, one PNZR succeeds in doing enough damage by pintle to destroy the aircraft. In the 110bounce.ahf film, a 110 bounces me repeatedly, and seems unconcerned by my pintle. I landed at least three hits on it with no tangible result, so it's not the one-ping killer that some fighter pilots might think it is.

It's quite rare to get pintle kills, and those that do happen are usually as a result of an overambitious fighter pilot. If the pintle is weakened, this will be more sop to the Quickfix tribe. More choices for them (they can be totally stupid and come in low and slow, blazing away with a 30mm cannon) and less choice for the would be PNZR driver, who will become defenceless against aircraft, and consigned to irrelevance, because we all know what's going to happen once the dweebs find out they can fly a low and slow N1K into the face of a PNZR.

Leave it alone. It ain't broke, so don't fix it.

These GV films are best viewed in the FIXED view point.

Aircraft attacking GV films

[Toad]

Twist, twist, twist.

Change? Only with respect to accurate modeling. I personally believe the .30 rifle caliber MG on the pintle is too lethal to aircraft structures.

Again, I suggest a filmed controlled test. We'll shoot a pintle gun at a parked IL2, range 600 yards, in bursts and see what occurs.

We'll then fly the IL2 on autopilot and have a Hurri I shoot at it with 8 rifle caliber guns, convergence at 600, at the same range and see what damage occurs.

If I'm wrong, I'll admit it.

Want to test it out?

It's a modeling issue, not a gameplay issue. Although I can see where you believe your only hope is to frame it as gameplay.

Twist, twist, twist.

[beet1e]

OK, Chubby Checker.  

As I said, it's a gaming issue. And if the pintle is dumbed down, Doofus-Dweebius is going to have a field day. I can see it now - low Nikkies, circling around PNZRs with impunity. I have already supplied films, which clearly demonstrate that the two pilots featured (and the films were taken in back to back sorties) sees the pintle as no threat. Its only use against aircraft is a low tracking shot in which the trajectory does not vary. I shot a P47 like that this week, but it took a sustained burst of at least three seconds.

Come on Bufo. You've got your way with fuel porker, you've got your close airfields, you've got rid of all those "superfluous" vehicle fields - what more do you want? How much easier do things have to be before you're satisfied?

Do me a favour. Try driving a PNZR for a week and see how many pintle kills you get. I bet you wouldn't even get 4. But let me pre-empt you by saying that I know you don't have the attention span to do that. So you don't really know how hard it is to get kills with the pintle. If you did, you wouldn't whine. Yeah, selective realism, when it suits.

Put up, or shut up.

[Toad]

Well then, I guess you would support giving each HE shell from  the main gun of the Panzer the equivalent leathality of 2000 pound bomb, right? On the theory that it's a gameplay concession to the difficult job of the tankers?

Jeez, you make my day sometimes. I needed some comic relief today for certain!

The more heavily armored GV's are essentially immune to damage from aircraft MG in the places that they should be.

Historically, armor hid from air as much as possible. Because armor's anti-air capability was basically nil using a pintle gun. And while air couldn't destroy armor with MG, they certainly could do damage with bombs, rockets and, to a far lesser extent, MG fire in vulnerable areas.

Further, anyone manning a pintle gun against aircraft was an EXTREMELY soft target.

Now, which of these historical truths do you wish to change for gameplay and do you wish to start making further gameplay concessions to ease the difficult jobs.

For example, it's a difficult task to get a Hurri 1 into position to kill on an La-7 but it happens. So can we give the Hurri the leathality of 20mm's instead of .303 in recognition of the "difficult task"?



BTW, if you're keeping up on fuel, NB said it was a code issue that HT would have to decide on. To date, I haven't seen that change announced. However, I have seen just about everyone agree that there should be better balance between the effort to degrade fuel and to upgrade fuel. Except you of course. So I didn't "get my way" on fuel, it's just that almost no one agrees with you. That's what upsets you, I guess.

Airfields to vehicle fields? Gee, Beet1e, you never answered in the other thread. Now folks will have the choice of vehicles OR aircraft at a changed field. That's MORE choice. Weren't you just touting yourself as the champion of choice? What happened?

And note again, NOTHING I've suggested really impacts your style of play. Strat, in all it's glory remains essentially unchanged. The fuel issue hasn't changed a bit. You can still plan mighty missions to capture the new fields or the changed V-fields... in fact, there's more to capture with your strateegery! Surely you must love that, eh?

No, I won't drive a gv. It's perhaps the most boring thing in AH for me.

Selective realism? Do you read what you write? You have to be the absolute King of selective realism, particularly with your incredible defense of a mis-modeled pintle gun and the bulletproof pixel hero that mans it.

Again, let's go film it. Put up or shut up.

But hey, thanks again for the comic relief!

[beet1e]

I say leave things as they are and let HTC be in charge of game development. Certain concessions ARE needed, hence the perk point system, and the need to perk certain planes to stop the arena becoming choked with them - F4U-1C, for example.

No, I won't drive a gv. It's perhaps the most boring thing in AH for me.

Hehe, "I've never tried it because I don't like it". And because GV ops are not important to you, you don't see why they should be important to anyone else.

Were your pintle change to be implemented, what changes to arena gameplay do you anticipate, and what is it you really want?  The only one to suffer a pintle death at the moment is the flat trajectory dweeb. And he deserves what he gets.

The lethality of the tank rounds is fine, thanks.  Glad I made your day!

[rshubert]

I agreee with you, beet1e.  I do a lot of GV work, and enjoy it.  I also get killed in GVs by aircraft.  Sometimes I shoot one down.  Frankly, it bugs me when aircraft come to tank town and mess up my GV fights.  But, oh well...

I think a lot of the gameplay issues seen by some people as "damaging" the game are an attempt by the developers to make up for the lack of numbers we have here in the game.  Think about it.  A typical WW2 fighter sweep would include 60 or more planes.  A bombing mission, 700 bombers escorted by 100 fighters.  Heck, we don't even have that many players on all three sides on at one time.  So, it's hard to duplicate the experience and the damage effects afforded by mass fire and formations.  

Thus, to make the game move along, they give us 8MM (not .30 cal, guys, it's a GERMAN tank) MG34s (or is it MG42) that are perhaps a bit more effective than in real life.  It all balances, since a smart Jabo pilot would not try to take out a tank with his cannons, according to some experts that have posted here.  I do know that a lot of fighters got shot down by ground fire in the real world of WW2.  Are we in balance?  I think so, since it sure seems to me that it is very unrealistic to allow a P-51 to take out the turret on my panzer with .50 cal machine guns--that happened last night.

Let's just play the game the way it is, and quit the moaning.