Author Topic: For Pyro AHII Gunnery (Read 3523 times)

Batz · « **Reply #105 on:** June 02, 2003, 05:20:10 PM »

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A comment on the accuracy of guns in WW2:

Most aircraft guns were not very accurate, especially recoil-operated ones. This was because the priorities were a high rate of fire and good reliability, both of which were aided by loose tolerances. Loose tolerances are not compatible with accuracy.

The .303 Brownings as used in RAF fighters achieved 75% of shots within 5 mils accuracy (that is, within an 18" circle at 100 yards). They needed a circle a yard wide to cover all of the bullets fired. This was fairly typical.

Ground tests of the .50 MGs in a B-24 showed accuracies varying between 10 and 20 mils at 600 yards for the turret guns, and no less than 35 mils for the waist guns - that is, ten feet at 100 yards!

This illustrates the fact that hand-aimed, flexibly-mounted guns were highly inaccurate, even when fired on the ground at a stationary target. Factor in aircraft movement, target movement and the battering of the slipstream against the gun barrel, and it's easy to see why such guns rarely shot down anything.

If the B-24's waist guns are typical (and I have no reason to suspect otherwise) than at the 300 yards range you're talking about a burst of fire which would have been spread across a circle of thirty feet diameter even under ideal conditions. I'll leave you to work out how many shots you'd have to fire to have a significant number hit the same spot on a wing which is edge-on to you.....

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum

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B-17:

ball turret > dia. 15' - 8.3mils
upper turret > dia. 21' - 11.7mils
chin turret > dia. 23' - 12.6 mils
waist(closed) dia. 26' - 14.3mils
side nose > dia. 34' - 18.7mils
tail turret > dia 45' - 25mils

B-24:

ball turret > dia. 15' - 8.3mils
upper turret > dia. 20' - 11.2mils
nose turret > dia. 23' - 12.9mils (Emerson)
nose turret > dia. 35' - 19.3mils (Motor Prod.)
waist(closed) dia. 23' - 12.9mils
waist(open) dia. 63' - 35.6mils
tail turret > dia 35' - 19.3mils

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A large Missconception is that dispersion makes gunnery harder at long ranges, it acctualy helps you in getting a lucky hit.

a lucky hit is one thing, lucky hits that kill you are different.

With the exception of the 3cm and hisso I have havent seen any 1 round kill a plane except when it was a pk. But dispersion at ranges should make it very hard to land many "lucky" hits.

Magoo · « **Reply #106 on:** June 04, 2003, 02:26:14 PM »

HT,

Does AH model different bullet drop (from gravity) when your firing at angles that arent perpendicular to gravity?

Magoo

Furious · « **Reply #107 on:** June 04, 2003, 04:08:05 PM »

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Originally posted by Magoo
HT,

Does AH model different bullet drop (from gravity) when your firing at angles that arent perpendicular to gravity?

Magoo

You can test it for yourself.

1. Start AH offline, although this works online too.
2. Type ".target xxx", where xxx is the desired distance in yds.
3. Fly due north, you will see a large bullseye.
4. Get inverted and fire away.

tells us what you find.

BenDover · « **Reply #108 on:** June 04, 2003, 04:25:30 PM »

That he's still flying perpendicular?

fats · « **Reply #109 on:** June 05, 2003, 02:57:28 AM »

--- BenDover: ---
That he's still flying perpendicular?
--- end ---

That his bullets don't fall up ( world cordinate system ) and down ( plane cordinate system ), like they did in some fighter duel version on amiga if I recall right.

// fats

Tilt · « **Reply #110 on:** June 05, 2003, 07:57:21 AM »

Hit sprites

I would have thought hit sprites would vary with round ( its KE, chemical and incendary content) as well as the target object.

eg would the sprite expected from an aluminium fuselage be the same as a wooden one or even a fabric covered one?

Are Sprites generated on your FE? or returned from the targets FE?

I rem from AW that it allowed visualisation of FE generated "hits" to be turned off (local hits on/off). Turning them off was more accurate. With them on you could appear to render serious damage to your opponent and pull of the attack only to learn that it had not been the case. In AH (on occasion)the sprites can seem to light up your opponent and give a far greater impression of damage than actually the case.

Rounds

Via TW we now have a wealth of evidence re diferent rounds from AP thru Incendary to explosive plus combinations of the same. I believe it would add to the game to give choice in the hanger across that range of round commonly available to that AC (via a clipboard drop down rather than the hanger floor)

Did I read that Russians had green tracers?

BenDover · « **Reply #111 on:** June 05, 2003, 08:14:52 AM »

Hit sprites in AH are generated on the shooter's FE, and so are hits.

Yeah, the russians had green AND red tracers, i think the green is from burning copper?

Tilt · « **Reply #112 on:** June 05, 2003, 09:40:59 AM »

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Originally posted by BenDover
Hit sprites in AH are generated on the shooter's FE, and so are hits.

But whilst shooters FE tells the targets FE (via the server) that he just sufferred hits (to his wing) its targets FE which decides and advises everyone that his aileron has just fallen off..............

BenDover · « **Reply #113 on:** June 05, 2003, 11:57:50 AM »

Hasn't worked that way when I've seen some lag, you know the kind of lag where he's there one sec, the other he's 1.5k off your wing?

I've fulled the guy fulla holes, then when he exited the warp stream, he had no wings and was on fire

Tilt · « **Reply #114 on:** June 05, 2003, 12:25:40 PM »

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Originally posted by BenDover

I've fulled the guy fulla holes, then when he exited the warp stream, he had no wings and was on fire

Then it did work that way......

clouds · « **Reply #115 on:** June 05, 2003, 07:07:52 PM »

Hey fats are you an AutoCAD user ? (speaking about WCS & PCS)

fats · « **Reply #116 on:** June 06, 2003, 06:04:13 AM »

clouds,

No. I've done my share of 3d modelling with other packages and some 3d programming how ever.

// fats

clouds · « **Reply #117 on:** June 06, 2003, 06:08:38 PM »

Are you speaking about CATIA ?

Xjazz · « **Reply #118 on:** June 10, 2003, 03:22:48 AM »

S!

About the distance:

"When shooting from dead six, it is best to get about 20 meters from the enemy, where the prop-wash that was shaking your plane earlier settles down. It is like getting from "heavy seas" to a calm "backwater". It is very nice to shoot from the rear sides, and from there you most often shoot the enemy down, too. You should shoot in front of the armour into the cockpit and engine. The lead is also so small that it'll give you no trouble at all. "

Captain H. Wind's Lectures On Fighter Tactics (from 1943)

Siaf__csf · « **Reply #119 on:** June 10, 2003, 04:03:16 AM »

The only reason experienced pilots get long range shots in AH are the hit sprites which indicate hits even if the target is behind the fuselage. I have a video where I shoot long aimed bursts at a 1.3k B17 and continue to paint him TOTALLY WHITE with hits untill he breaks in pieces. In real life the pilot could at most guess if or not his rounds hit the plane or not (except maybe some lucky flash or large debris now and then.)

This is completely unrealistic and allows the shooter to adjust fire to ranges which in reality would give no visual feedback of the hits.

This is the single biggest difference in AH and IL2 gunnery - and you can see the effect readily.