So exactly how dumb are the Pals?

[Rude]

Rude say's he appreciates your support Mazz and he assures me that he is not a violent person.

[Dead Man Flying]

I have problems attributing the actions and motives of a small, ultra-extremist Palestinian minority to the entire Palestinian population.  Clearly the extremists understand that it only takes repeated suicide bombings to derail the best efforts of moderates on both sides.

I find it difficult to believe that the new moderate Palestinian prime minister, who has spoken out vehemently against terrorism and the intifada in the past, would condone the terrorist bombings in light of very real peace prospects.  We're witnessing a political power struggle between moderate and extremist elements in the Palestinian society that plays itself out through suicide bombings in Israel.

Ultimately, I get the sense that two things must happen for peace to occur.  First, the Palestinian authority must deal as much as possible with extremists -- including Arafat, who clearly pushes terrorism as a means to undermine the ostensibly Democratic Palestinian government.  And second, given Palestinian security efforts, the Israelis must be willing to accept that certain extremists may succeed in committing suicide bombings during the peace process, and they must essentially ignore these bombings as desperate acts of an increasingly desperate minority.

Well, my thoughts anyway.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Lance]

Both sides are to blame, correct but I'd lay the blame around 90% on the Palastinians. They are the one's who teach their kids since birth to hate Jews.

I've got to disagree with you there.  Israel has killed 2 times as many Palestinians as Palestinian terrorists have killed Israelis.  If you could somehow determine a blame percentage (heh!) it would be closer to 50/50 than 90/10.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Hortlund

So do you Pal-defenders note the relationship between the IDF easing the grip on the Pals ever so little and new suicide bomber attacks? Heh, did it take 2-3 days after the Israelis opened up the West Bank until the suicide bombings resumed?

Cant help but notice that no one answered to that one...

Dowding?

[Eagler]

The new Pal "leader" has even less power/control than the old one did

Israel has to do what they have to do to protect their citizens from the pal nutjobs

and as long as these nut jobs are considered heroes by the pal community, the comunity gets what is coming ...

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Dowding
To me, it looks like there is blame on both sides. Anyone who doesn't recognise that is biased in favour of one side or other.
 

Or in other words...you are right, and anyone disagreeing with you is just plain wrong and biased?

Heh, I remember arguing with guys like you in grade school.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Dowding
Some already do, when they're not having their shops bulldozed because they are deemed 'illegal' (nothing to do with suicide bombings BTW). Or when they are having their houses bull-dozed to make way for 'buffer zones' aka Jewish settlements (and again, nothing to do with bulldozers for suicide bombings program either).

[/b]
Yes, the poor innocent palestinians have their homes and shops (?) bulldozed by the evil Israelis. Cry me a river rag-boy.

Has the I"D"F stopped using helicoptor gunships on crowds of civilians in 'follow-up' attacks yet?

[/b]
Heh, never mind the "have they stopped"-part. You should focus more on the "has it ever happened"-part. And please dont come dragging with some lame example of how a IDF helo takes out a car with a terrorist leader in it and there is X number of collaterals.

How about the statistics regarding gun shot wounds of Palestinian children and the distribution of head shots in those figures? Have they changed?

[/b]
Who knows. What are the statistics and where did you get them? http://www.palestinianfightforfreedom.com?

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Eagler
The new Pal "leader" has even less power/control than the old one did

It looks like Abbas has some powerful allies for peace.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/801833.asp?0cv=CB10

Quoting:

"But Israeli Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz said on Monday that Israel would consider expelling Arafat if he blocked efforts by his new prime minister to halt militant violence against Israelis.

'If we see that in the future Arafat continues to be a main obstacle to the peace process, and (Abbas) is ready to fight terror and sit at the negotiating table, then there will be no alternative but to think about steps to deport Arafat,' he said at a security affairs symposium."

Israel has to do what they have to do to protect their citizens from the pal nutjobs

[/B]

Including, it would appear, supporting the very man you've just described as irrelevant.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Lance
I've got to disagree with you there.  Israel has killed 2 times as many Palestinians as Palestinian terrorists have killed Israelis.  If you could somehow determine a blame percentage (heh!) it would be closer to 50/50 than 90/10.

So the body count determines the blame?

So in Iraq where the US killed something like 10 000 times as many Iraqis as Iraqis killed coalition soldiers...what does that tell us about the blame?

[Lance]

Hortlund, if you want to eat the crap that is Israel being blameless in the cycle of violence over there, then that is your perogative.  I am afraid I will have to refuse the invitation to dine with you, however.  

I see both sides as being murderous scumbags.  Palestinian terrorists kill some Israelis, the Israeli govt. goes out and makes sure to fill some body bags, and vice versa.  What is happening there is a cycle, with both parties on opposite sides helping to push the wheel in the same ****ed-up direction.  Can any of us say with 100% certainty which one is pushing harder?  No.  But I don't think its a stretch to say they both have a significant hand in it.  The body count I mentioned is an indicator of this.

Or is Israel justified in killing any number of people as long as most are terrorists?

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Lance
I see both sides as being murderous scumbags.  Palestinian terrorists kill some Israelis, the Israeli govt. goes out and makes sure to fill some body bags, and vice versa.

[/b]
Do you see a difference between a suicide bomber killing a bunch of schoolkids and an IDF Helicopter taking out a terrorist leader in a car? Because I do.

  What is happening there is a cycle, with both parties on opposite sides helping to push the wheel in the same ****ed-up direction.  Can any of us say with 100% certainty which one is pushing harder?  No.  But I don't think its a stretch to say they both have a significant hand in it.  The body count I mentioned is an indicator of this.

[/b]
Lets just say that that is your theory, and I think you are full of sh*t and leave it at that shall we?

Or is Israel justified in killing any number of people as long as most are terrorists?

As long as they are aiming at terrorists, and as long as they dont use artillery in built up areas (you get the idea), they are justified. Collateral damage will always happen when the terrorists hide in schools, mosques, ambulances, appartment buildings...etc etc.

The pals can stop this any second. All they have to do is drop their little intifada and say "hey, we are sorry, please let us try to behave and we will stop trying to kill you". They have an alternative.

The Israelis? The IDF dropped the grip on the palestinians just one inch, and 4 suicide bombings occurred in 3 days. They dont really have a choice. They have to hold the pals by the balls, because when they ease that grip, the Pals tries to land another punch.

[OIO]

DA-DA-DA!!!


THIS THREAD HAS PRODUCED A NEW SIG!


100 brownie points to Batz!

[Lance]

Do you see a difference between a suicide bomber killing a bunch of schoolkids and an IDF Helicopter taking out a terrorist leader in a car? Because I do.

Of course.  We have one thing we can agree on.  This is progress!

Now, to where we disagree.  What makes the murder of a Palestinian civilian by an Israeli acceptable collateral damage and the murder of an Israeli citizen by a Palestinian a vicious act of terrorism?  They are both murders of an innocent.  They both create hate in the people that knew the person killed.  They both make peace harder to come by.

You believe that Israel has done all it can to keep from killing non-terrorists, I think you are deluded.   You want to absolve Israel from any and all civilian deaths, I think you are a fool.  You think one side is pure good and the other pure evil, then I know you are a blathering idiot for whom figuring out the submit reply button must have been a great mental achievement.

But, by all means, keep the faith!  Oh, and uh, wipe your chin.

[Dowding]

in other words, please tell us of what the PLO has done to promote any peace in that region?

You might as well ask "...what has the UDF done to promote peace in NI?" It's a stupid, loaded question. You're desperate to make the conceptual leap that says the PLO represents the 'will of the people'.

Hortlund - I wrote:

To me, it looks like there is blame on both sides. Anyone who doesn't recognise that is biased in favour of one side or other.

Are you saying there is no blame on the Israeli side?

You should focus more on the "has it ever happened"-part. And please dont come dragging with some lame example of how a IDF helo takes out a car with a terrorist leader in it and there is X number of collaterals.

The killing of the Hamas leader a few months ago. His car was hit by a missile, killing all the occupants as it travelled through a suburb. A crowd gathered. Within quarter of an hour a helicopter appeared and fired more missiles into the car killing 'collaterals' (as you so clinically call them) including children. The whole thing was filmed by Channel 4 news team.

Yes, the poor innocent palestinians have their homes and shops (?) bulldozed by the evil Israelis. Cry me a river rag-boy.

What's with the (?)?

Israelis flatten West Bank shops

DMF makes an excellent point I think:

I have problems attributing the actions and motives of a small, ultra-extremist Palestinian minority to the entire Palestinian population. Clearly the extremists understand that it only takes repeated suicide bombings to derail the best efforts of moderates on both sides.

I find it difficult to believe that the new moderate Palestinian prime minister, who has spoken out vehemently against terrorism and the intifada in the past, would condone the terrorist bombings in light of very real peace prospects. We're witnessing a political power struggle between moderate and extremist elements in the Palestinian society that plays itself out through suicide bombings in Israel.

Ultimately, I get the sense that two things must happen for peace to occur. First, the Palestinian authority must deal as much as possible with extremists -- including Arafat, who clearly pushes terrorism as a means to undermine the ostensibly Democratic Palestinian government. And second, given Palestinian security efforts, the Israelis must be willing to accept that certain extremists may succeed in committing suicide bombings during the peace process, and they must essentially ignore these bombings as desperate acts of an increasingly desperate minority.

Well, my thoughts anyway.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Hamas et al have only one way of maintaining their power over the people - continued bloodshed. They've seen their ranks swell hugely as the cycle has accelerated - the leadership, who obviously doesn't like doing the dirty work and leaves that to impressionable kids, will not give this power up without a struggle.

[Curval]

Originally posted by Lance
What makes the murder of a Palestinian civilian by an Israeli acceptable collateral damage and the murder of an Israeli citizen by a Palestinian a vicious act of terrorism?  

The same thing that makes the killing of an Iraqi civilian by US forces acceptable collateral damage.  

Plus...one act you describe is essentally manslaughter...the other is murder.  Big difference.