Author Topic: So exactly how dumb are the Pals?  (Read 3039 times)

Offline Nashwan

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So exactly how dumb are the Pals?
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2003, 03:56:48 PM »
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With the removal of Saddam and the feverish backpaddling of Syria, the chance of peace in Israel is probably better than it has ever been.

You have all the major players agreeing on one simple plan. You have a clear time table, one with clear benchmarks. You have political will from Israel, you have a new Palestinian leader.

Israel hasn't agreed to the plan.

Phase 1 of the road map calls for an end to settlement activity. Powell raised it with Sharon last week, and Sharon's response was settlement growth must continue. His exact remark was "do you want them to have abortions?" (Settler women)

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So do you Pal-defenders note the relationship between the IDF easing the grip on the Pals ever so little and new suicide bomber attacks? Heh, did it take 2-3 days after the Israelis opened up the West Bank until the suicide bombings resumed?

What makes you think the Israelis opened up the West Bank?

They had specific warnings of suicide bombings in Tel Aviv last Tuesday, and imposed heavier than normal security. See:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=292500&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

From what I understand, the latest bomber in Jerusalem was disguised as a religous Jew, and probably came in through the usual back door in to Israel, along the roads reserved for settlers. They have very few checkpoints.

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The Palastinians don't wan't a state..They wan't the destruction of Israel.

Evidence for that? The PLO adopted the "two state" solution in 1988, and have held to it ever since.

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well, do remember israel is literally being asked to give away its land to a people hell bent on killing them.

I haven't heard anyone suggest Israel gives up any of it's land to the Palestinians. They are currently disputing the West Bank and Gaza, which are not Israeli land.

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BTW Dowding...would you please remind us all of the most recent independent Palestinian peace proposal to be brought forward to either Isreal or the US by the PLO itself?

The Palestinians have of course been calling for negotiations ever since Taba broke up just before Sharon was elected. Sharon actually ruled out substantive negotiations at all during his first term, always saying talks could begin "after the next election"

The Palestinians also supported the Saudi peace plan, and have endorsed the roadmap, which Israel has still failed to do.

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But to understand Yasser Arafat's situation is not necessarily to forgive his decision. Despite all these complications, what Bill Clinton offered and Ehud Barak accepted did give Arafat grounds for loudly proclaiming victory, and going home in triumph. After all, "formal custodial status" on the Temple Mount, recognized by all parties, smacks of control by right, not by suffrage.

The Palestinians have 3 main "wants" out of the peace process.

Their own state on 100% of the West Bank and Gaza (which means approx 22% of the area of Palestine immediately prior to partition, despite being 50% of the population)

The right of return for their refugees displaced during 1948.

Sovereignty over the Temple Mount.

Bartak offered them 75% of their territorial demands, but with major conditions, like no territorial integrity, waqter rights etc. He offered them 0% on refugees, and 0% on Temple Mount.

Israel has 3 major "wants" from the peace process.

Security
No right of return for Palestinian refugees
Retention of existing settlements

Barak's plan fullfilled all of those for Israel (security as much as can be achieved)

Barak didn't actually make any concessions to Arafat. Giving up the bulk of the West Bank and it's population is actually one of Israel's goals. They know they cannot continue to rule over a rapidly increasing Arab population indefinately, and the only alternatives to a Palestinian state are the expulsion of 4 million Arabs at gunpoint, into surrounding countries that won't take them, or a "final solution". Neither is acceptable anymore. (Look what happened to Milosevic when he tried something similar)

Offline Hortlund

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So exactly how dumb are the Pals?
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2003, 04:19:14 PM »
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Originally posted by Lance
Now, to where we disagree.  What makes the murder of a Palestinian civilian by an Israeli acceptable collateral damage and the murder of an Israeli citizen by a Palestinian a vicious act of terrorism?  They are both murders of an innocent.  They both create hate in the people that knew the person killed.  They both make peace harder to come by.
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To put it bluntly is that the suicide bomber is aiming at the schoolchildren, while the IDF helicopter pilot is aiming at a car containing a known terrorist.
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You believe that Israel has done all it can to keep from killing non-terrorists, I think you are deluded.  
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LOL nope, Ive never said anything even remotely close to that.
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 You want to absolve Israel from any and all civilian deaths, I think you are a fool.
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I've never said that either.  

Ok, how to explain this...hmm...

Lets start with the collaterals
The terrorists are hiding among the civilian palestinians. They set up their bomb factories in normal appartment buildings, they hide in schools, mosques, crowds. They move around alot, ans when they do they make sure to stay in crowded streets. Now, suppose Mossad gets a fix on one of these guys. They know that the bad guy wont loiter around for long, and they really cant go in on the ground, because there are hundreds of lookouts, and besides, they will probably be pinned down in horrible streetfights ala Jenin if they do.

So that leaves the options "let him go", or "take him out using helos/aircraft. "Let him go" really isnt an option. So that leaves take him out, and that leads to collateral damage.

Why do you blame the collateral damage on the Israelis? If the pals wanted to minimize collateral damage they could try to stop hiding among the civilians.

Over to the kids.
I dont know if you have kids. I have two sons. Suppose Russia invaded Sweden and occupied us. Suppose some sort of resistance was created. Suppose this resistance movement figured out a great way to oppose the Russian occupation... Lets throw rocks at their tanks and soldiers.

What do you figure the odds are I would let my kids take part in that rock throwing?

Offline Jack55

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So exactly how dumb are the Pals?
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2003, 05:39:00 PM »
The Palistinians have nothing but civilians.  I'm amazed that Israel has been as restrained as they have been dealing with these civilians.

Offline Lance

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So exactly how dumb are the Pals?
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2003, 05:56:39 PM »
Heh, then we agree that Israeli's have killed Palestinian civilians, Israeli's have not done everything possible to not kill Palestinian civilians, and Israel is at least somewhat responsible for the civilians they kill?

Wow, that almost sounds like Israel has some culpability in the crisis.  Perhaps they are even to blame somewhat for the hate that is directed toward them.  But I suppose that is just me.

Regarding your kids and your hypothetical Russian invasion of Sweden.  I would guess you would not let your kids go.  However, if you did and they were killed, I would not place all of the blame on you or your kids for their death.  The tanks should not be there in the first place.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2003, 05:58:54 PM by Lance »

Offline Habu

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So exactly how dumb are the Pals?
« Reply #49 on: May 19, 2003, 06:49:44 PM »
Hortland I agree 100% with everything you have written here. I am not a Jew I do not really care much about the middle east but I certainly reconize bull **** when I smell it and Dowding is just full of it as usual.

Offline Vulcan

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So exactly how dumb are the Pals?
« Reply #50 on: May 19, 2003, 06:52:20 PM »
Lets break it down to basics, and get rid of the use of civilians:

 - the Palestinians have clear military targets to strike
 - the Palestinians choose to strike 'non-combatants'
 - the Israeli's have unclear targets to strike, combatants include woman and children hard to distinguish from non-combatants
 - the Israeli's primarily target combatants however they usually manage to hit collateral non-combatants in the process
 - identifying dead Palestinians as combatant/non-combatant is next to impossible
 - identifying dead Israeli's as combatant/non-combatant is easy
 - if the Israeli's actively targetted Palestinian non-combatants then the casualty rates would be much higher than 2:1 (50:1?)

If the Palestinians chose to engage combatant targets perhaps their cause would have more sympathy. But they don't.

At the end of the day, both sides hate each other so much its doubtful anything other than a huge wall will suffice. And even then Hamas are still likely to hound the Israeli's by launching mortar or missile rounds across any such no mans land.

From a purely analytical point of view, this conflict will not cease until one side ceases to exist. Statistically and logically thinking sooner or later the terrorist organisations will manage to unleash some sort of WMD upon the Israeli's (be it chemical, nuclear, or biological). That will be the turning point in this conflict.

Offline Holden McGroin

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So exactly how dumb are the Pals?
« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2003, 07:44:53 PM »
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Originally posted by Vulcan
If the Palestinians chose to engage combatant targets perhaps their cause would have more sympathy. But they don't.


If they really wanted to win, they would use a tactic that has shown promise,.... Has terrorism ever worked as a means to independance?

If the PLO had followed the tactics of Ghandi, they would have been celebrating 30 years of independance by now.  Civil disobedience should work much better now that there is live TV.  Ghandi only had newspapers, radio, and Movietone news.
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Offline straffo

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So exactly how dumb are the Pals?
« Reply #52 on: May 20, 2003, 01:05:28 AM »
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
If they really wanted to win, they would use a tactic that has shown promise,.... Has terrorism ever worked as a means to independance?

If the PLO had followed the tactics of Ghandi, they would have been celebrating 30 years of independance by now.  Civil disobedience should work much better now that there is live TV.  Ghandi only had newspapers, radio, and Movietone news.


it worked in 1948

Offline -tronski-

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So exactly how dumb are the Pals?
« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2003, 01:26:03 AM »
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Lets break it down to basics, and get rid of the use of civilians:

 - the Palestinians have clear military targets to strike
 - the Palestinians choose to strike 'non-combatants'
 - the Israeli's have unclear targets to strike, combatants include woman and children hard to distinguish from non-combatants
 - the Israeli's primarily target combatants however they usually manage to hit collateral non-combatants in the process
 - identifying dead Palestinians as combatant/non-combatant is next to impossible
 - identifying dead Israeli's as combatant/non-combatant is easy
 - if the Israeli's actively targetted Palestinian non-combatants then the casualty rates would be much higher than 2:1 (50:1?)

If the Palestinians chose to engage combatant targets perhaps their cause would have more sympathy. But they don't.

At the end of the day, both sides hate each other so much its doubtful anything other than a huge wall will suffice. And even then Hamas are still likely to hound the Israeli's by launching mortar or missile rounds across any such no mans land.

From a purely analytical point of view, this conflict will not cease until one side ceases to exist. Statistically and logically thinking sooner or later the terrorist organisations will manage to unleash some sort of WMD upon the Israeli's (be it chemical, nuclear, or biological). That will be the turning point in this conflict.


You talk as if there was a Palestinian army and airforce.

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Offline Dowding

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So exactly how dumb are the Pals?
« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2003, 02:59:16 AM »
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Hortland I agree 100% with everything you have written here. I am not a Jew I do not really care much about the middle east but I certainly reconize bull **** when I smell it and Dowding is just full of it as usual.


Is that the sum total of your thoughts on this matter? Thanks for your input.
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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So exactly how dumb are the Pals?
« Reply #55 on: May 20, 2003, 03:36:17 AM »
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Originally posted by -tronski-
You talk as if there was a Palestinian army and airforce.

 Tronsky


So you need organized nation state type militaries to concentrate your nationalistic/liberation movement on predominantlty military targets?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2003, 03:38:21 AM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline Vulcan

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So exactly how dumb are the Pals?
« Reply #56 on: May 20, 2003, 04:47:52 AM »
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Originally posted by -tronski-
You talk as if there was a Palestinian army and airforce.

 Tronsky


How so? (not being sarcastic, I just don't see that in what I say).

Offline bozon

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So exactly how dumb are the Pals?
« Reply #57 on: May 20, 2003, 06:01:53 AM »
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the Israelis must be willing to accept that certain extremists may succeed in committing suicide bombings during the peace process, and they must essentially ignore these bombings as desperate acts of an increasingly desperate minority

This is very logical exept:
Do you know of a democraticly elected goverment who can say such a thing to it's citizens?
The US declared war on terrorizm and attacked two countries in the last 3 years after one attack on it's citizens. (OK, a lucky attack that did more damage than planned, plus a few minor incidents with US troops abroad).

Generaly you people are using too much logic, it'll only make your brain hurt. Logic doesn't apply here - it almost stopped working here about 3000 years ago with the introduction of monoetheism and completly stopped when two other monoetheistic religions were created.
As long as "god" or "holy" are involved, there will be no reasoning.

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Offline Hortlund

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So exactly how dumb are the Pals?
« Reply #58 on: May 20, 2003, 07:07:42 AM »
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Originally posted by straffo
it worked in 1948

Elaborate please.

Offline Hortlund

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Re: So exactly how dumb are the Pals?
« Reply #59 on: May 20, 2003, 07:11:10 AM »
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Originally posted by Hortlund

So do you Pal-defenders note the relationship between the IDF easing the grip on the Pals ever so little and new suicide bomber attacks? Heh, did it take 2-3 days after the Israelis opened up the West Bank until the suicide bombings resumed?


Dowding? Nashwan? Why are you dodging this one?