So exactly how dumb are the Pals?

[Imp]

If Israel is blameless then how do you explain these:

Bombing of a refugee camp by an F16.
This is terrorism, plain and simple.

A 200,000 people town with 150 Jewish colons.
Dumb people no doubt, would you settle in a town populated by Al-Quaeda supporters? I wouldnt.
Then when those colonists get attacked they send in the tanks to protect those "illegal" colonies.

Yeah, Israel is blameless


You seem to forget that most Palestinians live in poverty.
They have no hope for a better future, which makes it easy to convince them to blow themselves up since they have nothing to live for. The only way this conflict can be settled is for the Palestinians to start believing in a better future. For that they need jobs and security just like the Israelis.

The Palestinians fanatical leaders are brainwashing people. Those are the ones that must be elimated.
Problem is, people are very sentimental about religion.
Religion is not based on logic.
Maybe they need to get rid of religion
That would solve the problem instantly


There as been more violence during Sharon's time as PM then any other PM.
Killing innocents just reinforces the terrorist leaders' claims that Israel as to be destroyed.
If you lost your girlfriend to Israel you would probably hate them. Which would make you more vulnerable to brainwashing.
Innocents dying only helps the violence continue.


Its a vicious circle, someone as to change their ways.
Otherwise it will never end.

There is no balck or white, its all in shades of grey.

[ra]

Logic doesn't apply here - it almost stopped working here about 3000 years ago with the introduction of monoetheism and completly stopped when two other monoetheistic religions were created.

Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot would agree with you.  Man must become more rational or there will be nothing but slaughter.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Hortlund
Elaborate please.

Oops ... I should have wrote it helped not it worked.


As far as I reming the Irgoun is in the genealogie of the Likoud.



btw I don't remember wasn't count  Bernadotte swedish ?

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Nashwan
What makes you think the Israelis opened up the West Bank?

They had specific warnings of suicide bombings in Tel Aviv last Tuesday, and imposed heavier than normal security. See:

[/b]
Again, it might be smart to consider using non-palestinian sources sometimes? Israel closed off the west bank this Sunday. After three suicide bomber attacks within 24 hours. The bastards. They closed the Gaza strip almost as soon as they opened it though...I wonder why...

From what I understand, the latest bomber in Jerusalem was disguised as a religous Jew, and probably came in through the usual back door in to Israel, along the roads reserved for settlers. They have very few checkpoints.

[/b]
Yeah... imagine a rolleyes emoticon here.

Apparently there are roads in Israel that are marked "for settlers only" and those roads are not as heavily guarded by the IDF... So let me guess, the terrorists put up a sign that says "settler" on their car, and they are waved through?

Evidence for that? The PLO adopted the "two state" solution in 1988, and have held to it ever since.
 

So what the PLO has been doing since 1988 is their version of the "two state solution"? One "state" sends in suicide bombers and other terrorists to kill as many civilians as possible in the other state? Just exactly how naive are you anyway?

[bounder]

Originally posted by Hortlund
Elaborate please.

]

I think Straffo's talking abou the Irgun, remember - King David Hotel, deir Yassin etc?

Also IRA have partly acheived their goals (not united Ireland, but partially independent N.I and withdrawal of UK armed forces (phased)).

Negotiating with terrorists can pay dividends as many in NI will tell you. Problem is terrorists end up on unemployment register and go into extortion, drug dealing, racketeering and organised crime.

No solutions in the middle east for the time being, until someone actually works out what the problem *really* is.

But bringing your children up in atmosphere of hate and violence is only going to result in more hate and violence.

Ironic that is all taking place in the holy land, where a hippy once preached a doctrine of non-violence and love for fellow man. Even more ironic is that this should be the state religion of most of the countries pouring arms into the region.


 (remember guys, Jesus is not only the Son of Yahweh, but a profit [edit-  I mean Prophet of course]of Allah too (he was actually executed for non payment of income tax - undeclared second job)

[Hortlund]

Yes, but anyone arguing that the jewish terrorist attacks pre 48 was a reason for the creation of Israel should do some reading on the jewish situation in Europe in 1933-1945.

I'd say the state of Israel was created despite the jewish terrorist attacks. And it was created because of the enormous and collective "ooops...we ****ed up...sorry" -feeling all of Europe and the US had after 45.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Hortlund
Yes, but anyone arguing that the jewish terrorist attacks pre 48 was a reason for the creation of Israel should do some reading on the jewish situation in Europe in 1933-1945.

Never said that.
And I know what happened during this period (in fact who can ignore that ?)

I'd say the state of Israel was created despite the jewish terrorist attacks. And it was created because of the enormous and collective "ooops...we ****ed up...sorry" -feeling all of Europe and the US had after 45.

Surely, but is it a good reason ?

If you look at the importance of the ultra-orthodox (aka  settler) in Isreal governement you will see one of the key problem (not that it make the Palestinian innocent nor excusable).

[bozon]

true bounder.
The Israelies had 3 organizations that operated vs. the brits and the palestinians:

the "hagana" (defence) - was primarly a "passive" organization. stocked up on ammunition in the settelments for their defence (also stealing guns from the brits) and smuggled illegal imigrants. about 70% of the israelies were were active or affiliated with this organization. Led by Ben-Gurion and later became the governing party. It's last remenants are todays "labor" party.

the "etzel" (N.M.O  - National Military organization) - were activly fighting the british forces. had plenty of attacks on british HQ and other military targets. Also kidnapped a few officers. Most Israelies might disagree, but some of these actions count as terrorizm. Less then 20% were affiliated with that organization. Led by Menahem Begin (past prime minister) and it's remenants are the "Likud" party (now in power).

the "Lehi" (I.F.F - Israel freedom fighters) - the most extreemist of the three, Led by Itshak Shamir (also past prim minister). qualify as a terrorist organization.

The BIG difference is that the dominating faction - the "hagana" was trying to controll the other two organization. It handed some of their leaders to the british (was called the "season" as in hunting) and was generaly against terror attacks against the british. The hope was that the PLO would do the same and controll the "Hamas" and "Jihad". It didn't and is sending suicide bombers of it's own.

In this case, the diplomacy and defense only tactic won. Independance was gained with the blessing of the UN.

Bozon

[Hortlund]

I didnt mean to say that you meant that straffo.

[Naso]

Very interesting, Bozon.

Your post was thousend times more "informative" than any of Hort's racistics rants.

Since I know you have lived on your skin the situation, what are your thoughts about it?

What can be the way to get rid of the religious part, expecially on palestinian side, since IMHO, once the terror is stopped the extreme right will be under control in Israel?

You see the light at the end of the tunnel, or is a matter of annihilation of one part of the equation?

Please, share.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Hortlund
I didnt mean to say that you meant that straffo.

I prefered to write it before we enter one of our successfull (end entertaining ) hatred discussion

To keep the signal/noise ratio to a believable level

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Naso
Hort's racistics rants.

wtf..?

And if you're going to insult me, at least have the decency to do it in English.

[Rude]

I had no Idea you danced this well Dowding...let's try again.

What efforts on the PAL side have been made to bring their people a better life?

Could it be the hatred of Jews taught in their schools or perhaps the guided admiration of suicide bombers?

This is my point.....both parties hold blame to one degree or another....the difference being that the pal leadership has brought more strife upon their own people thru the lack of compromise. In life, the are few absolute or immediate solutions to problems....many look good on paper, but theory is far from execution.

The common pal is simply a pawn used or sacrificed for the gain of a few corrupt leaders and special interests terror groups.

What amuses me is your comments are slanted towards a look what the mean old Isreali's are doing to those poor innocent pals.

The whole of the problem is the condition of mens hearts...not just in the middle east, but everywhere that deceit, pain and abuse rear their ugly heads....further, you nor I along with the winded fury of typed words on this BBS will ever bring closure to what problems plague the Middle East.

Enough said by me...feel free to offer your qualified rebuttal.

[NUKE]

I had no Idea you danced this well Dowding

dammit, that's my line!

[Toad]

The Pals are going to lose any sympathy remaining for their cause through the actions of the radicals.

The new "road map for peace" may or may not be the best possible solution, but it was a start.

Now, it's just another non-starter. The war continues and most likely with even less sympathy for the Pal side.

How long before it's simply open warfare and mass slaughter?

Sorta looks like it's the inevitable option.