So exactly how dumb are the Pals?

[straffo]

The wonder of Internet

[bozon]

 The Hunting Season was followed by the United Resistance, in which the Haganah controlled the other orginisations, and allocated them targets, including the King David Hotel.

Even the Hunting Season was carried out mainly as part of an internal struggle to maintain leadership in the Jewish community. A British report on the men turned in concluded:

my point exacly Nashwan.
If the PLO intends to lead the palestinian to independence it cannot allow other extreemist organizations like "Hamas" and "Jihad" run around loose. It is convenient to the PLO not to deal with them and let the suicide bombing continue, thus dancing on both weddings.

It's a common practice in the middle east for a country to have some "other" organization taking the blame and clearing their responsibility. Just like Lebanon is not responsible to controll the "Hizballa" operating from it's border (and used as pressure tool by Siria) or Saudy-Arabia not responsible for El-Quida or the fact that almost all 9/11 terrorists were their citizens.

btw, King David hotel attack was done by the "Etzel" not by the "Hagana", plus they took the bother of calling the hotel and warning them (which was disregarded). Not that that makes it less a terrorist attack.

Bozon

[-tronski-]

Originally posted by Vulcan
How so? (not being sarcastic, I just don't see that in what I say).

Wasn't having a go at you...

Non-collateral...combatants..I should have been more specific I suppose and mentioned the it was all about the language.

I do find it odd however that people still struggle with trying to find a high moral ground as a necessity before an acceptable compromise can occur.

I find it also odd that some people would find this:

A Palestinian state would be established in most of the West Bank and all of the Gaza strip, with these conditions:

The state would not have an army with heavy weapons,
The state would not make alliances with other countries without Israeli approval and would not allow introduction of foreign forces west of the River Jordan.
Israel would be allowed deploy troops in the Jordan Valley if Israel were to be threatened by invasion from the east.
Israeli aircraft could overfly Palestinian airspace.
Israeli would install early warning stations in the mountains overlooking the Jordan valley and other areas.
Palestinians would control border crossings with Jordan and Egypt along with Israeli security observation.
The Israelis would retain management over water sources in the West Bank while approving a limited quota to the Palestinians.
Israel would lease areas in the Jordan Valley or maintain temporary sovereignty over them for up to 25 years.

acceptable, when they no doubt would not find it acceptable where they live.

 Tronsky

[Vulcan]

To be honest Tronski it'd be easier for the Palestinians to take it a step at a time, ie accept or bargain within the terms offered. Establish peace. Establish sovereignty.

Once a stable solution is set up, start going for the 'extras'. IE instead of going to the world saying 'look what the Israeli's are doing' take the sales pitch to the Israeli people. A peaceful Palestinian nation would get a far fairer hearing.

Its a chicken and egg solution. IMHO the Palestinians have nothing to lose by accepting these terms and then trying to gain benefits in peace. Their people already live in poverty and low quality lifestyles.

But it'll never happen.

I still put money on the table that within the next 5 years we'll see a catastrophic terrorist attack made against the Israeli's, something that will be the ultimate peace through the retaliatory violence. Something like terrorists set off chemical or dirty bomb in Israel, Israel responds in similar vein to Palestinians, rest of the region gets involved. Dust settles, one way or another theres a sad peace.

[Eagler]

Originally posted by Vulcan
...that within the next 5 years we'll see a catastrophic terrorist attack made against the Israeli's, something that will be the ultimate peace through the retaliatory violence. Something like terrorists set off chemical or dirty bomb in Israel, Israel responds in similar vein to Palestinians, rest of the region gets involved. Dust settles, one way or another theres a sad peace.

less than 3 years - unless Israel gets tired of playing with the pals and their PC gloves come all the way off

I commend their tolerance and restraint

[Naso]

LOL, Straffo & Curval, thanks for the help

let's try...

"touché"





A big hail to Al Gore that invented internet.

[Nashwan]

Once a stable solution is set up, start going for the 'extras'. IE instead of going to the world saying 'look what the Israeli's are doing' take the sales pitch to the Israeli people. A peaceful Palestinian nation would get a far fairer hearing.

Its a chicken and egg solution. IMHO the Palestinians have nothing to lose by accepting these terms and then trying to gain benefits in peace.

What Barak offered was a final deal. Final, permament borders. There would be as much chance of the Palestinians gaining more land after that as Britain would have trying to negotiate the return of Calais now.

A peaceful Palestinian nation would get a far fairer hearing.

The problem is the West Bank is regard as part of Israel by the settler movement. They firmly believe it is their duty to God to settle the land. It doesn't really matter what the Palestinians do, they are in the way of that settlement.

I still put money on the table that within the next 5 years we'll see a catastrophic terrorist attack made against the Israeli's, something that will be the ultimate peace through the retaliatory violence. Something like terrorists set off chemical or dirty bomb in Israel, Israel responds in similar vein to Palestinians, rest of the region gets involved. Dust settles, one way or another theres a sad peace.

There are only 3 possible outcomes. Israel pulls out of the West Bank, Israel establishes Palestinian enclaves (Bantustans), as proposed by Barak, and Sharons favoured solution, or Israel ethnically cleanses 4 million Palestinians.

The first solution can work, but wether any Israeli government can carry it out now is doubtfull. Rabin was killed for far less.

The second solution is basically similar to the Oslo process, and that hasn't turned out too well, and the third solution transfers the Palestinians to Jordan, thus destroying Jordan and turning it in to a radical Palestinian state. It also brings closer the destruction of Israel, because they will lose a lot of support worldwide.

Retaliation against the Palestinians cannot subdue them long term, because their long term survival under Israeli occupation is not possible anyway. If you're heading for extinction, you will fight back.

[Eagler]

Originally posted by Nashwan
If you're heading for extinction, you will fight back.

if you are walking off a cliff, you turn around... unless you are considered a hero by your peers when you smash on the rocks below and there isn't anything else to live for as you have been taught your whole life your life's dream is to walk off the cliff.

[Sabre]

Originally posted by Arfann
Y'all seem to be missing the real joke here. That Dubya and his cronies think that, after all these years of hatred and bloodshed they can come in with a "blueprint" and everyone will make happy-happy. Makes Camp David look like a complete success by comparison.

Whoa, Gronk!  I know you don't like our President, but isn't that statement a bit reactionary?  I don’t believe anyone in the Administration, either the President or his advisors, believes they can solve this problem overnight.  That’s why their plan put forth last week spanned a time frame measured in years.  It was meant to get the process going again, not end it in one fell swoop.  Both sides seemed genuinely interested in pursuing that plan, or at least discussing it.  Unfortunately, both Arafat and the new PA PM seem to be powerless to rein in the terrorist organizations they (or at least Arafat) spent their whole life creating and nurturing.  Israel’s leaders likewise are trapped by their policy of retaliation.  Holding back that retaliation after one or even two terrorist acts, in the name of peace, would probably be doable.  Doing nothing in response to five such attacks in less than two days would be political suicide.  Israel has tried restraint in the past, and it has brought them nothing but more attacks.  That is not to say they have always shown restraint, or even reason in their response.  As has been pointed out, both sides share the blame, as do a great many other countries (Western and Middle Eastern).

Gronk my friend, I’m tempted to include you in the category of political reactionaries who will find fault with our President no matter what he does (as many did with Clinton, or Bush Sr. or Teddy Roosevelt, etc.).  Your derogatory choice of terms above adds credence to that assessment.  Before the war, Bush was criticized for putting emphasis on Iraq, when things in Israel were so tumultuous.  Now that he’s turning his attention more fully on Israel and the Palestinian issue, they criticize him for having the gall to think he can help in the peace process.   What would you have him do?  Should he do nothing?  Would you not criticize him just as loudly in that case?  I didn’t see anyone else, in the region or without, making any positive efforts to help the Israeli and Palestinians find their way out of the darkness.  "Let go your hate, or consume you it will."

[Naso]

If Bush will help solving this problem in a just way, I promise to give him a Salute in "size 24".

Bozon:

I am still curious about what you said with "slowly decline as a western country".

You meant "become a violent third world undemocratic killing regime?".

In the case... I hope this scenario never never happens.

[bozon]

Originally posted by Naso

Bozon:

I am still curious about what you said with "slowly decline as a western country".

You meant "become a violent third world undemocratic killing regime?".

In the case... I hope this scenario never never happens.

I've studied my history. Israel is walking in a dangerous path. When a country or an empire gets ever more involved in trying to secure it's safty by investing more and more in it's army, it declins (unless it constantly occupie new territories). Economy would not allow keeping a huge army AND investing in production, infrastructure, science and culture.

Soon the thirst for "security" will surpass all, already invetments in culture and science are reduced to the bare minimum and economy is on the decline. Moral standards are on the decline as well. There used to be a time when every firing incident was investigated - today if there was a firefight and some palestinian gets killed, there's a slight chanse it will be mentioned at the end of some debriefing.

Also, all other burning issues in the society are shadowed by the struggle with the palestinian. Remember, that Israel is only 55 years old and it brought together people from all over the world, most of them from non-democratic countries. It was supposed to be a model socialist county, now america-style capitalist, with immigration laws based on the nazi definition of a jew.
The most fundamental question - what kind of country is it supposed to be, is not resolved.
The including of "democracy" in the answer to that is not that trivial.

Jewish strength was never in it's army. It always has been in education culture and moral standards. Israel is loosing that and if things would run in the current course, it will become just another toejamty backward 3rd world country just like all the countries that surround it - from Lebanon to Yemen, from Iran to Morroco.

from a country that have it's own space technology, world leader in advanced optics and medical equipment, a country of 5 million that 5 years ago produced more startup companies then entire western europe, it would be come another middle-eastern struggling state with no human rights whatsoever.

in order to avoid that, alot of people need to get real smart real quick. I know some of those people and it's a long shot.

But there's still hope.
Bozon

[GRUNHERZ]

Bozon but you forget how many military subsidies Israel gets from the USA...

[Naso]

Wow, Bozon for president.

Exactly what I understud, and what was thinking myself.



---

Grun, I guess that what you pointed can only worsen the situation.

[GRUNHERZ]

Israel, and all its neat economic/intellectual stuff bozon talked about developed and survives today because of Israeli military power and direct US military subsidies and support. And also remember how much of that Israeli industrial/scientific base traces ts roots to their defense industry.

[Hortlund]

Funny, I thought Bozon was agreeing with me.

Never mind, shouldnt you go hide from Al Queida or something GScholz?