Just out of curiosity...

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by NUKE
You're not getting me.

[/B]

LOL I am getting you.  Reread what I wrote.

1. BB doesn't account for the logical fact that there is an infinite chain of events preseading each action, so it doesn't explain much and makes huge assumptions.

[/B]

The Big Bang explains a great deal, but your real problem with it seems to be that it assumes nothing about what came before, not that it makes huge assumptions about what preceded it.  Beyond that, we may test any assumptions that it makes because the theory, like any good theory, provides sets of empirical expectations that allows us to validate its truthfulness.

2. If you believe in the BB, it's no less logical to believe in a God based on "something" causing each to exist in the first place.

[/B]

We may not falsify the existence of God whereas we can do so with scientific theory.  Do you not see the logical, empirical differences?  We do not require "faith" to believe in the veracity of the Big Bang; we require and obtain evidence and retool the theory accordingly.  An inability to explain predecessors to the Big Bang represents a failure of the theory but not of reality.

3. If you try to take the BB to it's logical conclusion ( rewinding if you will) then it goes into infinity and has always existed and was always happening. The same logic can apply to a God always existing.

[/B]

Yes, as I've noted.

I wasn't trying to prove god existed...how can you? I was pointing out that it's just as valid to believe in a God always existing as it is to believe in the universe or BB always existing/happening.

[/B]

Perhaps, but again we're in this never-ending circular argument.  If we concede that the Big Bang must have come from something, and if it's possible that this thing was God, then we must concede that God came from something, and this something came from something, ad infinitum.  It's a nice logic exercise, I suppose.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[AKIron]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying

Perhaps, but again we're in this never-ending circular argument.  If we concede that the Big Bang must have come from something, and if it's possible that this thing was God, then we must concede that God came from something, and this something came from something, ad infinitum.  It's a nice logic exercise, I suppose.

-- Todd/Leviathn

The first is not dependent upon the second.  We are talking space/time here.  If God created space/time then he doesn't have to have "come from something".  Isn't it conceivable that there is something beyond space and time that we are uncapable of understanding? Or at least something that defies our methods of logic?

The nature of the universe as we understand it requires a beginning, if not an end. That there had to be something "before" implies itself that there was a creator.

[boxboy28]

back to one of the basic laws of physics (i think thats it)
"Matter can not be created or destroyed"
no if that being the case a BB cant create matter nor destroy it.

back to the question at hand .........it has always been and will allways be.   We humans created time and feel everything must start and end!

My question is if they can tell the universe is expanding....can they see the end of it? how can they tell its expanding?

[AKIron]

Originally posted by boxboy28
back to one of the basic laws of physics (i think thats it)
"Matter can not be created or destroyed"
no if that being the case a BB cant create matter nor destroy it.

back to the question at hand .........it has always been and will allways be.   We humans created time and feel everything must start and end!

My question is if they can tell the universe is expanding....can they see the end of it? how can they tell its expanding?

Are you saying then that time is an illusion or a false peception? If so, then the universe is neither expanding nor contracting.

[boxboy28]

my point exactly time is only relivent to life forms.

[AKIron]

and there is no spoon

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by AKIron
The first is not dependent upon the second.  We are talking space/time here.  If God created space/time then he doesn't have to have "come from something".  Isn't it conceivable that there is something beyond space and time that we are uncapable of understanding? Or at least something that defies our methods of logic?

[/B]

What you describe needn't be "God."  Why do you find it so difficult to concede that the Universe may have existed infinitely or been the product of some infinite loop of creation and destruction absent a Creator?  It's entirely possible that the science and math describing universal creation go so beyond human conceptualization that we can't conceive of it with our primative minds.

That does not mean that God did it.  It doesn't mean that God didn't do it either, of course.

The nature of the universe as we understand it requires a beginning, if not an end. That there had to be something "before" implies itself that there was a creator.

Who created the creator?  There must have been something "before" God.  No?  Well, it's entirely possible that whatever was "before" the Big Bang was always there as well.  I don't find one possibility any more improbable than the other.  

-- Todd/Leviathn

[boxboy28]

Originally posted by AKIron
and there is no spoon

Yes there is its next to the Fork and Knife.

[AKIron]

By creator I didn't necessarily mean God. Just that there was a beginning to our physical realm, made by something...different.

I recognize that my choice to believe that all of the physical universe was created (from something different) by God is based upon faith. I have no physical evidence, other than the physical universe.

Why not God?

[CyranoAH]

"Matter cannot be created or destroyed"... well, according to the latest quantum foam theories, matter can appear from nowhere, apparently.

Matter is in a state of potentially existing or not existing, and can switch from one to another.

My girlfriend could explain it much better than me...

Daniel

[AKIron]

Originally posted by CyranoAH
"Matter cannot be created or destroyed"... well, according to the latest quantum foam theories, matter can appear from nowhere, apparently.

Matter is in a state of potentially existing or not existing, and can switch from one to another.

My girlfriend could explain it much better than me...

Daniel

Maybe matter just oscillates through infinite universes? Maybe oscillate can't be used with infinite?

Maybe I suffer from a youth spent with too much science fiction and not enough science?

[boxboy28]

Originally posted by CyranoAH
"Matter cannot be created or destroyed"... well, according to the latest quantum foam theories, matter can appear from nowhere, apparently.

Matter is in a state of potentially existing or not existing, and can switch from one to another.

My girlfriend could explain it much better than me...

Daniel

now that ild like to see/hear sounds interesting.
But where does the matter go ? the 3rd dimension?

and what the hell is "quantum foam theories"?

[AKIron]

Plato may have been on to something with his "Forms". Maybe energy radiates from a center reality creating infinite realities. Seems I read a series by Roger Zelazny long time ago based on this premise.

[CyranoAH]

Good reading about quantum foam and matter from string vibrations:

http://www.ldolphin.org/qfoam.html

Daniel

[AKS\/\/ulfe]

I knew you'd come up with something like that Hortlund.

The problem is its only retarded because you don't understand.

For whatever reason, you seem to think the universe obeys the same actions we see in our everyday lives on earth.... when the two are not mutual.

We get a tiny little glimpse of all the happenings of the universe, we understand very little and know even less.

Those scientists aren't guessing, but to make up a supernatural deity that created all life on earth and only on earth because humans are neat creatures to watch kill themselves while the universe is full of other far more interesting actions- now thats one helluva nice fairy tell you got going on there.
-SW