Author Topic: Squadron owned Carriers...........  (Read 1780 times)

Offline rshubert

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« Reply #60 on: June 07, 2003, 09:12:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Ok curly... so we agree that no cv's were sunk by heavy bombers.. great.   Low alt furballs?  well... yes.. plenty of low alt fights.. some in the med and africa could be called low alt furballs... some in the pacific were fields so close to one another that planes couldn't get to 10k.

I agree that the sky accountants and the furballers will never understand what is fun for the other guy..  I think I allmost allways advocate choice... problem is... the strat guys depend on ruining stuff for people who may never see em or want to bother with em.  No one that furs get's any real fun out of killing lumbering strat players... much less hovering around waiting for em and trying not to dose off.

"sinking my cv"??  I don't have a cv.  If one is sunk that is the source of a good fight it is not just me that you are ruining the fight for... it is the 2 dozen or so guys that were having a good time.   We will just wander off and see if we can find something else that looks like a good fight... stopping yu is farthest down on the list of "fun things to do".

Well certainly us lawnmower jousters are not on the same plain as you baseball and paint watchers (oil based drys way slower check it out) but we do amuse ourselves.... give us the choice...or, more accurately.. don't take away the choice to find a fight and we will be happy...  in our short bus kinda way.   Heck... when there is a good fur we don't care what you do... HTC will notify us if you heroes "win the war"  while we were off having a good time.
lazs



Oh, GAWD, lassie, you are SUCH a hypocrite.  "I favor choice", sez you.  Sure you do.  You favor YOUR choice, and anyone else's choice that doesn't fit into YOUR idea of how AH should work is stupid, wrong, weak, or impractical.

Get over whatever has caused you to have this horrible attitude, man.  It's really ugly.

shubie (in case you've forgotten)

Location: porking your furball field

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #61 on: June 08, 2003, 10:13:15 AM »
hubert... the atom bomb would be choice too..  why would you take away the ability of someone to sneak all the way around the map in a fluff and drop an atomic bomb?  the bomb would say... kill half the fields..  What?  too much effect for too little effort?  Get it?

ships that were sunk by heavy bombers didn't have the kind of ack umbrella that cv groups had.  Still... I don't care about the realism aspect that much but it is nice if you can have realism and good gameplay... sinking cv's with fluffs is both unrealistic and bad gameplay.

sure hubert.... go ahead and hurt my fields... with your talent level you will be stuck in one place all night... I won't even know you exist...and that is the point... In a game like this... If you don't see the fguy then he should have such a small effect on you that you wouldn't even notice.

but... Hazed... are you advocating adding more cv's or just making the ones we have even less usefull and making the arena even more "maw" like with the gangbang/steamroller version of (cough) "strat".
lazs

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #62 on: June 08, 2003, 10:23:18 AM »
Variety is what keeps many of us coming back to this game Lazs. I think I enjoy a good furball as much as the next guy but if that's all there was then I (and many others) wouldn't play nearly so much. And you need us to stock your furballs.

No crime proselytizing though, think you've won many converts?
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #63 on: June 08, 2003, 10:30:28 AM »
iron... I don't think I have won any converts..  I believe that the new large maps and the new boring gameplay are making converts to my side.

I am simply mr obvious... the only reason I come on is to jam it down people throats.  occassionaly tho... I come up with an idea or term of endearment that may be useful.   If I make someone ruin their keybord or monitor or get their heart rate up or make em look at themselves or think a little or best of all...

hate me so much that they hunt me down and give my squadies a good slaughter fest...  well... I've contributed in my own humble way

lazs
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we don't like you.

Offline hazed-

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« Reply #64 on: June 08, 2003, 12:34:19 PM »
sheesh laz gimme the chance to read the thread and answer! :)
I was thinking keep the present CV's as they are and usable by everyone.
Squads can pay perks to produce EXTRA CV's. Also if HTC agreed to it I'd like the squad owned CV's to be LIMITED in their airframes the same as a REAL CV would.

The public CV (same as we have now) would have no restrictions or limits they would remain EXACTLY the same as now. Only the purchased CV's would be limited to (40?) airframes and when they are all dead it automatically heads for the nearest port to decomission.

Curly I can understand what you are saying.If players want to keep their CV then they damn well had better protect it.I would agree with this up to a point. That point being the player who uses a bomber (say lancaster) to dive bomb with no intention of trying to survive and every intention of ruining others fun by sinking the ship. If like you say you use a legitimate tactic, level bombing or a torpedo attack I would have no problem losing my CV to it.I dont see why any vehicle or ship or aircraft should have some sort of concession in order to make it live longer.

Laz as for your point , about players not wishing to do standing patrols in order to fend off bomber attacks because of the sheer boredom of flying in circles with no action well there really i no answer, If you or others refuse to man the guns or protect the CV with a fighter screen what is your reason exactly for refusing curly his chance to play the game the way its set up? you wish to fuball but refuse to defend well im afraid thats your fault not curly's.

The point i made earlier is pertinant here though. If you have a squad of 30 or so players on your squad night and all are with you on your private squad CV they WILL want to protect it because it COSTS THEM if its lost. You will most likely set up a cap of 10 or so fighters to cover your very own CV maybe 10 bombers to attack your target and 10 escort planes. The CAP of the CV will indeed be less exciting than the attacking pilotsjob but then you and others in your squad will just have to do your time as a CV defender IF you want to continue to use it and not lose all your perks. It would definately be a whole different situation than the present one we have with undefended public CV's.

Maybe your squad is full of furballers who refuse to hang around and defend the squad CV? well guess what? you are not going to be using squad CV's for long are you :)
Maybe you will need to recruit a few of the types who WILL defend.

I for one can predict right now when i run into an AK privately owned CV I will be met by a standing fighter patrol. If you find my 113th lucky strikes CV you will see the same. True those pilots defending wont be having as much 'fun' as the others in the squad flying attack missions etc but they will be performing a REALISTIC job whch further adds immersion imo.Also we would take turns in doing so.

If your squad isnt prepared to do this sort of thing then , well, you are going to lose your CV and your perks real quick ;)

As to the point about only an entire squad being able to afford a CV that could be adjusted according to what happens in the MA. If they all seem to be killed off too easily then they will have to be cheaper to buy until they are used a lot by various squads.

Think about it, you say it wont encourage squadron joining but to me, if I saw some squad sailing ships around that no one else can use I think I would want to join that squad so i too can use them.

btw curly and laz we shouldnt be argueing about it here because HTC havent even commented on the idea. It may be something they wont ever use or it might not be possible or desirable for HTC to use 'pool' perking. What we need now is someone from HTC to say if it might be used or indeed if its even possible.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #65 on: June 08, 2003, 06:19:08 PM »
hazed.. I don't think that we should have to man the acks.. they should be automatic and able to kill as well a manned 5 inchers..

as for the AK or whoevers cv... I don't want to sink it.  I just want to kill every guy they send up from it.  If they have a cv close to one of my fields that is every bit as good as if I have a cv.  the cv is just another airfield to me... a close one.  A place for a good fite.  

If not for killshooter I would shoot down our own bombers that were going out to kill an enemy cv.
lazs

Offline AKcurly

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« Reply #66 on: June 08, 2003, 06:57:33 PM »
Lazs, you remind me of an old dog I used to have.  He would sit around licking his "nether regions." We would occasionally have company over and I would make him stop the licking when we had guests (he required about 2 reminders/minute.)  

Every time I would correct him, he would whine.  The more I made him quit licking himself, the louder he whined.  Hell after 15 minutes or so, he was in full bellow.  

You sound just like that old dog. :)  

That old dog had another habit that I haven't directly observed in you --  however, I suspect you have it too.  When a strange female (human) came into the house, he would discreetly follow her around.  The second she turned her head, he would stick his nose under the hem of the dress and lift it straight up until he had his nose right in the crack of her butt.   Heh, I used to take a seat and watch the action.  I saw more than one woman clear about 2 feet in a vertical leap.

curly

I still want the historical details on the  dozens of planes furballs at 1k or so. :)

Offline hazed-

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« Reply #67 on: June 08, 2003, 07:36:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
hazed.. I don't think that we should have to man the acks.. they should be automatic and able to kill as well a manned 5 inchers..

as for the AK or whoevers cv... I don't want to sink it.  I just want to kill every guy they send up from it.  If they have a cv close to one of my fields that is every bit as good as if I have a cv.  the cv is just another airfield to me... a close one.  A place for a good fite.  

If not for killshooter I would shoot down our own bombers that were going out to kill an enemy cv.
lazs


Id have to agree here that the 5" flack is rather useless on automatic. Only when they are manned do you notice they can actually hit you regularly.However if you fly through the cone of light ack I dont know about you but for me im almost always shot down.I can dive in and pull out on the edges of it and survive but i cant ever fly right through and hope to fly away.I have seen others do it and i often wonder how the hell they manage it.Same thing on bases really.I fly though and im almost always hit yet i regularly see spitfires fly right through a fully acked base without a scratch.might this be a connection (ping) issue?
I must say i am a little against dieing in an online game to ai controlled weapons though.I still am of the opinion that I fly online games to fight human opponents rather than computer ones as i can fight computer opponents for a lot less money.Currently in order to play AH i pay the $15.99 monthly sub + £24.99 for ADSL.


You know what would solve this problem? If we have a CV which cannot be sunk but instead can be severely damaged.Perhaps 6000lbs shouldnt snk the ship but rather cause the server to display a huge fire on and below the flight deck.The ship is automatically led on a course back to port by the server overiding any player waypoints.For ten minutes the ship would continue on this path as the fires are brought under control by an Ai fireteam. Once a time limit of lets say 10 minutes has passed the ship becomes usable again.You could have the other ships like the cruiser stay the same as they are now ie you can sink them.

You could even make it so that the one and only way to actually 'sink' a carrier is to torpedo it.Bombs can only damage it above the waterline.

What we really need is a way for players to be able to sink the ships but it has to be a way which requires a great deal of skill.Im sure even you laz could accept losing a carrier if the player who sunk it flew an exceptionally hard mission to do it. Torpedo bombing is currently quite difficult but its not used often because it simply isnt as easy as using large quantities of normal bombs and a plastering the area in a dive.

It wouldnt actually be asking too much from reality to have a ship unsinkable by a HE bomb. Armour piercing bombs could but in AH we havent got AP bombs only HE ones so this restriction wouldnt be so rediculous.(until HTC add AP and ruin the idea ;))

Curly just out of interest do you ever fly torpedo runs? If you dont and continue to use your level bombing method with increasing ease then surely you must be getting a little bored with it? If HTC made the restriction I suggested and level bombing no longer removed a carrier threat perminantly but only temporarily dont you think you might start to use the more perminant torpedo attack?

This would put all potential CV killers at an altitude which even laz with his 6k alt cap could fly at :D

problem is what about a squad owned CV? would this also have the same model? its a tough call but i think it could have the same torpedo only sinking as, like i have suggested, if it has limited airframes there will always come a time when the ship would have to return to port so it wont be possible to hang around endlessly in enemy territory.

I also feel it only fair that a shore battery should be able to sink any ship.
This restriction on HE bombs and ships would in a stroke make suicidal jabos and bombers rather a waste of time as the only effect would be a temporary respite from the CV. The suicide jabo/bomber pilot would be dead and in 10 mins the CV will be steaming back to attack their base.They would have to learn to torpedo it if they want it removed perminantly.

Offline AKcurly

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« Reply #68 on: June 09, 2003, 01:15:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hazed-

Curly just out of interest do you ever fly torpedo runs? If you dont and continue to use your level bombing method with increasing ease then surely you must be getting a little bored with it? If HTC made the restriction I suggested and level bombing no longer removed a carrier threat perminantly but only temporarily dont you think you might start to use the more perminant torpedo attack?


No Hazed, torp runs are suicidal in nature, so I don't do them.

How can I get bored doing CV runs?  

Tonight, I upped a flight of B17s from A39.  There were 3 enemy CVs offshore and planes were just beginning to climb towards A39 (Bish field near HQ.)

I climbed towards the fleet, leveled at 10k and started shooting at the trail of F4Us, F4U4s, F6Fs and Seafires behind me.  I killed 4 of them but lost my drones.

I put 6k squarely on one CV (got a 5th kill with the drop) and headed home.

Now, if the CVs had had some 10-12k CAP, I would have been d-e-a-d and no bomb drop.  As it was (uncapped), I was able to get 6k off and RTB.  Only the presence of truly impressive numbers climbing towards me prevented me from killing 2 of the 3 CVs.

When I tried to land at 39, I was vulched.

Bored?  Gawdalmighty, it was exciting. :)

No doubt Lazs would have died from boredom - I mean I only had to fight off 8-10 attackers. :D   I want to emphasize they were below me.  I have trouble fighting off one attacker if he's above me.  If he's decent, I'm dead.

curly

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #69 on: June 09, 2003, 08:26:39 AM »
curly... people aren't dogs.  best to reserve your kicking for your dog and hope no animal rights people are around.

hazed is correct... the effect should match the effort.  pretty simple really.  but... what I see advocated most are ways that one person can affect the game for a dozen or more by doing something that requires very little or no skill.

tw9.. i don't care so much that If the carrier is sunk that I can't "land kills" so much as I can't take off again and rejoin the great fight that 2 dozen people were all enjoying... it is a simple matter to ditch at the group and not give anyone the kill..

I think it would be better for now if the cv were not capable of being sunk, invulnerable, untill all the other ships in the group were sunk.
lazs

Offline AKcurly

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« Reply #70 on: June 09, 2003, 04:35:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2

hazed is correct... the effect should match the effort.  pretty simple really.  but... what I see advocated most are ways that one person can affect the game for a dozen or more by doing something that requires very little or no skill.
 


Lazs, Hitech designed the game with clear intentions of promoting "team participation."  Indeed, if the members of a country don't cooperate, things go to hell in a hurry.

For example, if everyone ignored attacks on HQ, then you lose DAR.  Now, you may or may not care whether DAR is up, but I suspect the majority of the participants want DAR.

Why aren't you raising hell about HQ attacks?  They affect many more people than sinking a CV.

I suspect you have a clear and uncomplicated agenda: You want to furball and nothing else.

Lazs, I don't enjoy protecting HQ.  And yet I do it because it protects my ability to have fun later in the game.

Lazs, quit licking yourself and spend some time protecting your CV.  You can take a tiny amount of pleasure in shooting my sorry donut down and spend the rest of the time stroking the round.

curly

Offline hazed-

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« Reply #71 on: June 09, 2003, 05:08:24 PM »
thing is though if you have a ju88 flying at < 200 feet and , 200mph they are far easier to fend off with fighters or ships guns.
I had a go in the ship guns yesterday and i had 4 attacks on me by a formation of lancasters which dived in , a formation of ju88s which dived in and two seperate attacks by P47s.
I shot down almost every one but they all managed to drop their bombs on or close to the CV.I would have to say i dont think i could have done much better than i did as i got almost all of them at a long distance, 2.5k for one of the lancs. But still their bombs caused damage.
The last attack was by a p47 which flew directly into the deck and just as he was a few hundred yards up he dropped the bombs,(you can hear the whistle start).A blatent suicide bomb.
I have to say I was disgusted by it.There wasnt a single attempt to pull out apart from maybe the ju88 pilot and the CV was sunk. It would take well over an hour for the next CV to get to the same place.
This doesnt seem right to me. Its far too easy to kill CV's in this game if you have no care about losing your aircraft.Theres no penalty at all is there? anyone can up drop a bomb die and repeat.
What this means is Bomber pilot fans and Ground attack fans have a nice easy time and a nice target to hit causing a large affect to the game.The player who likes to furball between two close bases wants the CV to stay up but his choice is stop furballing and defend or continue furballing and soon they will have to stop due to loss of the CV.When you think about it its hardly fair is it?

FAIR would be:

CV can be defended easily from small scale attacks using AA guns, in order to overwhelm the AA you would need to send several simultanious attacks.
Ground attack players in fighters or bomber pilots can damage a Carrier ship and can repeatedly do so but the reward ISNT sinking its a temporary closure of the CV - the fire idea i mention earlier (they can still sink a cruiser/destroyer ships normally)
To perminantly remove the carrier players will need to organise a proper torpedo attack using ONLY the B5N, ju88 ,tbm or ki-67.
or perhaps allow only the specialist dive bombers to load AP bombs which are only used for shipping targets.(ju88 perhaps excluded as 4x1000lbs of AP would encourage suicide behaviour) this would mean ONLY the D3A1, TBM, STUKA, SBD CAN be used to divebomb and sink a CV.I would recommend making each carry a maximum of either 1000lb AP or 2000lb AP depending on their max capability
This means in order to SINK a Carrier it requires more than one attack or one big organised and successfull attack.In other words the bomber pilots and jabo pilots HAVE TO EARN THE KILL.

this way if a cv is sunk no one can complain they had an easy time of it. Furballers would have more chance of stopping these particular types of aircraft than suicide lancs and b17s and heavy fighters.

I think this would be a better way to ballance the battles than as now where its so easy to sink the CV we all know its doomed as soon as the first suicide attempts start.Its really not a nice or fun way to play the game imo.causes frustration for the pilots using the CV.even the gunners as they can hit their targets but they can rarely prevent them lobbing their bombs which still hit.

I would like to see squad CV's battleing it out myself but as i noticed last night suicide dweebery is so rife its hardly worth using Cv's these days.It needs fixing before squad CV's would work imo.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2003, 05:15:04 PM by hazed- »

Offline hazed-

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« Reply #72 on: June 09, 2003, 05:30:35 PM »
Just thought of another way to make suicide bombing in formations less effective using the same model AH has now, no changes apart form to make ships impervious to all but a direct hits by bombs.

this way even if you do drop 3x the bombs due to the width of the formation only one set could actually hit the others would hit water harmlessly.

this could at least help a little now without much of a change to AH.

Offline Busher

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« Reply #73 on: June 09, 2003, 10:06:11 PM »
Hazed - overall this is a good idea. I support it.
Being male, an accident of birth. Being a man, a matter of age. Being a gentleman, a matter of choice.