Author Topic: A real life WW2 pilot's thoughts on vulching  (Read 4317 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

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A real life WW2 pilot's thoughts on vulching
« on: June 20, 2003, 04:37:23 AM »
Earlier tonight a discussion popped up on channel 1 whether or not vulching was honorable.  That got me to thinking about whether or not real life combat pilots had the same feelings about vulching.  Then I remembered a post by Earl on another message board about the very same issue.  

For those of you that have never had the fortunate opportunity to run into Earl, he was a former AW player that was also a real life combat pilot in WW2 that flew P-47s, P-39s and P-38s in the MTO.  In addition to combat service in WW2, he also flew combat planes in Korea and Vietnam, so at least for me, his words on this subject carry a lot of weight.  Anyway, to those that took part in tonight's discussion that thought vulching was a dishonorable practice, I hope this sheds some light for you.

Quote
While I am at it, let me tell you my feelings about "vulching", where a pilot zaps an enemy aircraft on the ground.  AW pilots seem to look upon that tactic as amoral or worse.  In real life, it was a fighter pilot's dream.  Zap one enemy A/C on the runway before it could take off and zap you.  I thought it should be encouraged in AW.  In AW I was hoping to catch a C country pilot in that situation.  Remember?  They were the worse enemy!  Knocking down one of them was a feather in
one's hat.  Shucks, now I'm getting nostalgic.

earl



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« Last Edit: June 20, 2003, 06:13:22 AM by Ack-Ack »
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Offline Kweassa

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A real life WW2 pilot's thoughts on vulching
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2003, 07:09:48 AM »
I guess nothing can be more adequate than a comment from those who have seen the action themselves.

 However still, there are some things to be considered. Even in real life, I'm pretty sure 'vulching' was a favorable form of attack on certain strict conditions - which brings it to the problem which haunts military pilots even today.

 Sometimes, it is hard to set the line between vulching for inevitable/tactical purposes and strafing civilians and civilian structures - one example is the war in Korea, a backward country in the 1950s, where the modern form of city planning did not exist. Vast spaces of fields and hills, mountains, wilderness with scattered villages, woods and bushes, rice fields - practically no distinctions between civilian areas and military areas, since neither of them did not existed - at least in the modernistic sense.

 The contradicting nature of military ethics - spawned from the fact that essentially military action is a justified and sanctioned form of use of lethal force - sometimes brings out serious problems. And especially, the method of ground attack known as 'vulching', has higher risks and dangers of such problems arising.

 To be fair, I'm sure none of the people participating in the war had time, or practical need to think about such things. The purpose of war is to win, and many things are just buried under that ultimate purpose.

 Vulching and ground attacks, may and probably would have caused unnecessary deaths to unnecessary people in various occasions - from the point of view to us who live outside of war today, I don't think it's anything glorious. But to those who were inside the warring environment, I'd like to think that they had no choice. Who knows whether or not the guy who's been left alive, would kill you the next day?

 ...

 From the gaming point of view, it's pretty much like HO. Also, the purpose of MA is to win by capture. Vulch is a necessity, and an effective way of suppression. There's no 'honor' in it, but come to think of it, there's no place for 'honor' in a warring environment.

 Of course, being the target of vulch is frustrating. And sometimes you meet people who have no serious intention of capture - people who deack and attack a field, following vulch scene after vulch scene present in the arena, racking up kills. I myself have met a few whom I can swear that I haven't met in any place any time outside of a vulch - always getting shot down by the same guy in a same situation, those few people who you'll never see outside of a vulch ;)

 Using easy planes with lots of ammo, coming in with horde/alt advantage, vulch the crap outta field. They're usually the first to leap into a vulch, and also the first to run away from the scene, leaving all his countrymen behind, when the defenders organize a defense and strike back. Whilst their friends who suffered damage and losses in order to deack the target field is burning up in flames, those guys merrily land their kills, and go looking for another vulch scene! :D

 Yup. That's pretty lame. Honorable? Certainly not.

 But still, it's his way of flying and fighting, and ultimately, he's known to other members of the community as a lame person. He gets no respect. It's his loss.

 Besides, nobody forces someone to up from a vulch field. Upping from a vulch field with hopes to somehow disperse the attacks, means you up despite the risk. Someone who got vulched, doesn't have a say in it. He knew the risks. Yes it's understandable that he might hate the fore-mentioned type of 'vultures', but still, has got no say.

 My 2 cents.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2003, 07:12:21 AM by Kweassa »

Offline Fishu

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A real life WW2 pilot's thoughts on vulching
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2003, 09:28:47 AM »
This question should be asked from more pilots than one.. it is pretty interesting one real life pilot wise, how they feel about it.

Offline ccvi

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A real life WW2 pilot's thoughts on vulching
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2003, 09:52:25 AM »
In real life when the enemy aircraft on the ground was destroyed it was no longer a threat.

In the game another one spawns immediately.





It's more fun here ;)

Offline WineMan

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A real life WW2 pilot's thoughts on vulching
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2003, 10:03:55 AM »
I suppose in the MA it could be considered a bit on the "weak" side to vulch...

...But, on the other hand, it can be really handy for adding up those perk bonuses, or just making you feel better after a couple of hard sorties...

Besides, who can really complain about vulching?  When you're sittin' in the tower and see 30 cons circling and strafing the field, DON'T UP!!

That being said - I never go out of my way to fly to a field when so and so knight announces that the "vulch light is on" at such and such field.  If it so happens that an even fight over an enemy base turns into a vulch fest, I'm certainly not going to just turn around an go home.  I'll take my extra kills and land'em for the nice perk points.

Offline Psyco

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A real life WW2 pilot's thoughts on vulching
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2003, 10:24:25 AM »
I have a scanned pilot report from WWII which details a P51 pilot's claim for two kills. They were taking off and he adjusted his attack so they would be airborne getting him 'kill' credit. The first he hit at 450 knots and the other started a climbing left turn which he hit with a 60^ deflection shot doing 400 knots. He got credited with two ME262s in one pass!

I am creating a website with tid-bits like this including some P51 gun camera film showing train straffing and a nice take-out of a ME109. Also I will be posting pictures of my Dad's visit to his buddy's in Chicago two weeks ago where he got a few hops in one of his Bud's P51s (he has two). I will post the URL when I have it done.

Psyco

Offline ccvi

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A real life WW2 pilot's thoughts on vulching
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2003, 10:50:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Psyco
I have a scanned pilot report from WWII which details a P51 pilot's claim for two kills. They were taking off and he adjusted his attack so they would be airborne getting him 'kill' credit. The first he hit at 450 knots and the other started a climbing left turn which he hit with a 60^ deflection shot doing 400 knots. He got credited with two ME262s in one pass!


Had they been on the ground he wouldn't have been credited them as kills?

See, the game is wrong.

Offline Widewing

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A real life WW2 pilot's thoughts on vulching
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2003, 11:58:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ccvi
Had they been on the ground he wouldn't have been credited them as kills?

See, the game is wrong.


By mid 1944 the 8th AF was crediting ground kills. Their reasoning was based upon two factors.

1) Strafing airfields was THE most dangerous work a fighter pilot could do.
2) Rewarding pilots with kills encouraged them to do more of the same.

You can imagine the thoughts of Luftwaffe pilots upon seeing dozens of P-51s orbiting above their airfield and they just received orders to scramble....

As to vulching; there's a difference between field supression and gangbanging the lone idiot determined to get airborne. One is essential to field capture, the other a bit wimpy. Of course, there would be no vulching if not for the idiot!

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline rod367th

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A real life WW2 pilot's thoughts on vulching
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2003, 01:22:35 PM »
most pilots who flew in ww2 would rather kill enemy anyway they could.


 America sent p51's to Vulch the new jet fighters...



 In here why let pilot up and ho friend or kill troops. In ww2 pilots did alot of wierd things to save friends lives,I've Read many stories of pilots ramming rearends of planes to save friends and allies. ! german pilot was real good at taking tails off.......

Offline rshubert

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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2003, 02:13:01 PM »
I think vulching is fun, when I'm the vulcher, and a real drag, when I'm the vulchee--unless I make it off the field, and into the fight.

Ya gotta take the bad with the good, imo.  Vulch whiners are a lot like HO whiners--both know how to avoid the situation, but continue to get HOed and/or vulched.

Offline Ack-Ack

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A real life WW2 pilot's thoughts on vulching
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2003, 03:01:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fishu
This question should be asked from more pilots than one.. it is pretty interesting one real life pilot wise, how they feel about it.



Read Chuck Yeager's autobiography sometime.  He had no guilt about vulching German planes as they took off.  In fact that's how he scores his first German jet kill.


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Offline Eagler

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A real life WW2 pilot's thoughts on vulching
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2003, 03:31:06 PM »
vulching is only bad if you are the vulchee :)

ain't like there isn't another base to roll from
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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A real life WW2 pilot's thoughts on vulching
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2003, 03:38:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
By mid 1944 the 8th AF was crediting ground kills.


And still none of them could score worth a damn... ;)

Offline Gixer

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A real life WW2 pilot's thoughts on vulching
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2003, 05:42:28 PM »
Find it very amusing when people compare anything in a game to real life events historic or otherwise.

On the battle field whether ground,air or sea. Chivalry and Honour went out with King Arthur and White Horses.

Pilot's use to chute chutes let alone vulching anything they could on the ground.

Of course there are instances where honour might be displayed and recorded but they are very few and far between.



...-Gixer

Offline Gixer

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A real life WW2 pilot's thoughts on vulching
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2003, 05:44:26 PM »
Excuse typo, of course that's shoot chutes before the typo police point it out.