B-17 Flight Model

[Shacker]

Are there any plans to fix the flight model for the B-17?

Currently the aircraft requires MAp and RPM settings that are WAY above max acceptable ranges for the Wright Cyclone engine.

Max MAP 46 hg and 2500 RPMs for no more than 5 minutes.

Climb power settings are as follows

Maximum Climb 2300 RPM  38" HG Auto Rich 140 MPH

Desired Climb 2300 RPM  35" HG Auto Rich 130 MPH

These figures are straight out of the -1 for the B-17.

I won;t even post cruise, descent etc at this point cause ya gotta get the others right first. Takeoff run is excessive BTW.

The B-17 in AH will not even maintain level flight at the maximum acceptable power settings at this point.

If there are no plans to fix it let me know. I'll quit bugging you and save us both a lot of grief.

 


[This message has been edited by Shacker (edited 11-17-1999).]

[Fishu]

RPMs not done yet.

[newt]

FM felt OK to me but then again I've only flew right seat in a empty, real B-17G. As I remember it was like driving a big old Buick with manual steering. The A/C flew great once she was trimed out. Elevator and rudder were real responsive but man it took some muscle to bank her. But as for the power settings in AH, it's still a beta and I see a great future head for all the A/C.

------------------
Newt 487th FG
Project No. U.S.
From CK beta to Warbirds have prop will travel...

[CRASH]

heck, I would think that since one could put one into a better than 450kn dive that some wing rippin'code would have priority for correction.

CRASH  

[Shacker]

You flew right seat in a b-17 with a MAP pressure well over 46 hg and the engines did not seize?

Ummmmm. ok

But in the real world the Wright engine will not tolerate this type of abuse without coming apart.

You want a critique.

RPMs wrong

MAP wrong.

(by the way this is how you regulate power for a piston engine airplane. By the MAP and RPM guages. The pilot operational handbook, in this case :

............B-17 G model...........

AN 01-20EG-1 Pilots Handbook of Flight Operating Instructions

AN 01-20EG-2 Erection and Maintenance Instructions

T.O. No. 02-35GC-1 Operation Instructions for the R-1820-65, 71, 73, 87, & 97 Aircraft Engines
T.O. No. 02-35GC-2 Service Instructions for the R-1820-65, 71, 73, 87, & 97 Aircraft Engines

............B-17 F Model............

T.O. No. 01-20EF-1 Pilots Handbook of Flight Operating Instructions

T.O. No. 01-20EF-2 Erection and Maintenance Instructions

T.O. No. 01-20EF-14 Handbook of Cold Weather Operation

T.O. No. 02-35GC-1 Operation Instructions for the R-1820-65, 71, 73, 87, & 97 Aircraft Engines

T.O. No. 02-35GC-2 Service Instructions for the R-1820-65, 71, 73, 87, & 97 Aircraft Engines

T.O. No. 03-10DA-6 Fuel System Operation Restrictions on Turbo Superchargers

............................. .........

Is quite specific about power settings. Further this is the FIRST thing any real pilot would notice as dead wrong and in desperate need of fixing first time they tried to take off in this FM.

Aileron response is too quick and too sharp. This aircraft does not like to roll very quickly at all.

Rudder is too responsive.

Take off roll is way too long

Lift off speed is way too high.

Stall speed is way too high (both dirty and clean)

Speed bleed at zero power needs work.

The B-17 is a relatively easy aircraft to fly. It is neither heavy nor light on the controls. It responds propmtly, but not sharply, to control inputs. At landing speeds the nose tends to get a bit heavy (120 MPH and below) but this is easily taken care of with trim. The aircraft crosses the fence at about 100 MPH and touches down around 90 MPH. Control response at these speeds tends to become sligish but managable. With proper control coordination the aircraft will bank easily and hold its bank angle quite well. The maximum safe bank angle for normal operations is 35 degrees.

Flap deployment reaction is BACKWARD (that is when you deploy the flaps the aircraft descends) In the real world airplanes tend to rise when the flaps are deployed unless the pilot slowly compensates with trim as the flaps move out of the wings.

The trim indicator is BACKWARD at least to my mind. When you roll the trim wheel of a real airplane toward the nose the airplane tends to nose down, Backward noses ya up. Aileron and rudder trim work the same way left is left and right is right. The trim indicator moves UP for down and down for up, left for right trim and right for left trim.

and those are the GLARINGLY obvious problems. There are other less noticable quite subtle problems with the FM for the B-17. I can;t comment on the fighters cause I have not looked at them and have no stick time in any of those types any way.

Are you a licensed pilot or did you just ride in the seat?

If you are a pilot. Would you not think it would be more prudent, and accurate, to FIRST get the power settings for the various flight operations correct and then adjust the remainder of the flight model to perform according to those standards? This is how commercial simulation flight models are built. They first set the aircraft performance numbvers and then after those are correct adjust the performance of the flight model to perform properly at the proper power settings.




[This message has been edited by Shacker (edited 11-18-1999).]

[Mark Luper]

Kind of ate up with arn't you Shacker... :-)


MarkAT

[Shacker]

I recon but if 'accurate' flight models are going to be 'claimed' then some attempt at accuracy needs to be made wouldn't you suppose?

[Smut]

Shacker,

What part of word "Beta" don't you understand?

How you point out what you consider is wrong is at least as important as what you are pointing out...no need to start hammering HTC for a lack of "realism" right now. You're just making yourself look foolish.

Developers tend to ignore people with 'tudes...ask me how I know...:-)

-Smut

------------------
-----
XO, The squealing Pigs
"Oink! Oink! To War!"

[Shacker]

Smut you said

......"Shacker,

What part of word "Beta" don't you understand?

How you point out what you consider is wrong is at least as important as what you are
pointing out...no need to start hammering HTC for a lack of "realism" right now. You're
 just making yourself look foolish.

Developers tend to ignore people with 'tudes...ask me how I know...:-)

                    -Smut.........."

Go back and read that post again. It was not directed to High Tech. it was directed to an individual who stated he had flown a b-17 and that the HT flight model felt okay to him.

That prompted me to point out what should have jumped out at any real world pilot with even a rudementary knowledge of operating procedurtes and limitations of the B-17 as being glaringly wrong.

People who 'claim' to be in the know and make statements that are confusing to the developers are a huge part of the problem with development of flight simulation games.

Am I a b-17 pilot? No, I do have four hours time in one. I have not ever taken a B-17 off the ground although I did follow through on the controls. I have had complete control of the aircraft from the time of departure until just before landing. I did not land the aircraft either, to either take off or land would  have required a good deal of dual time with a CFI rated in the B-17 and I was not prepared to undertake either the time or the cost of such a project. What I did do is:

Engine start procedures
engine run-up and checks
Departure and climb out (climb power settings)
Cruise and cruise power settings.
Enroute climb
enroute descent
approach to power on stall
approach to power off stall (engines throttled back per procedural manual)
S turns over terrain
engine out operations (engine three power back and feathered, engine three brought on line and four powered back and feathered)
Descent and approach to landing

The comment about requiring "a lot of muscle' to bank the airplane is also troublesome. If the aircraft is properly coordinated in a turn it is quite easy to bank and hold at that angle and does NOT require a lot of effort.

These kinds of statements are misleading and detrimental to the finished product. The original post was to High Tech yes. This is the second time I have asked that same question in the last three months (first time was about 30 minutes after the release of the beta). All I want to know is do they intend to fix the problems with MAP and RPMs. I did not ask someone to claim to have 'flown' a B-17 and cloud that issue and I responded to that.

Have a nice day

 

[Shacker]

Oh yeah and as to do I understand what 'beta' means. You bet I do. Been beta testing for a good while. Fact is I have a form that I use to beta test aircraft. (it probably won;t format correctly since it is is in word 97 but here ya go. (BTW I am a commercial pilot with nearly 5000 hours)

BETA TEST LOG (Aircraft)

Aircraft tested_________________Date__ ________________

FUNCTIO  YES NO   Mouse
              Controllable?
                 Y / N   
                   N/A           Rating /                               Outstanding /                               Excellent /                                Good / Fair /                                  Poor
                                 O E G F P
   
                                             # of test   
                                                Comments


Does This Simulation Have?                     
Throttle Levers                     
Mixture Levers                     
Prop Levers                     
Fuel Flow Levers                     (Usually Turboprop AC only)
Landing Gear Lever                     
Flap Lever                     
Cowel Flap Control                     
Turbo Charger Control                     
Waste Gate Control                     
Carbeurator Heat Control                     
Anit Ice Equipment                     
De Icing Equipment                     (Ususally Military Aircrafrt Only)
Internal Light Controls                     
External Light Controls                     
External Power                     
Internal Power                     
Voltage Meters                     
Charge Meters                     
Generators                     
Inverters                     
Magnetos                     
Magneto Controls for Each Mag                     
Mag controls for each engine                     
MAP Guage                     
CHT Guage                     
N1 Guage                     
N2 Guage                     
ITT Guage                     
Prop RPM Guage                     
Prop Torque Guage                     (Usually Turboprops Only)
Eng RPM Guage                     
Fuel Quantity Guage                     
Fuel Flow Guage                     
Fuel Tank Selector Control                     
Fuel CROSS FEED Selector                     
Fuel Pump Controls                     
Fuel BOOST pump Controls                     
Fuel Primer Controls                     
Engine Temp Guage                     
Exhaust gas Temp Guage                     
Oil Pressure Guage                     
Oil Temperature Guage                     
Vaccume Guage                     
Bleed Air Bands                     (Turbine Aircraft Only)
Magnetic Compass                     
Clock                     
Turn Timer                     
Turn Coordinator                     
Slip Skid Indicator                     
'Ball Turn and Bank' Indicator                     
Gyro Compass                     
RMI Indicator                     
Attitude Indicator                     
HIS Indicator                     
Altimeter                     
Kolosman Window in altimeter                     
VSI Guage                     
Airspeed Indicator                     
ILS                     
VOR                     
DME Indicator                     
NDB                     
Autopilot                     
Tacan                     
GPS                     
Weather Radar                     
Storm Scope                     
Wheel Brakes                     
Differential Wheel Brakes                     
Elevator Trim Tab                     
Aileron Trim Tab                     
Rudder Trim Tab                     

                     
STARTUP and RUNUP Procedures                     
Does the enginestart procedure follow the POH?                     
Can engines be started seperately?                     
If improper start sequence is used will engines still start?                     
Will Damage result?                     
Do engine instruments respond properly to start sequence?                     
EGT?                     
Oil Press?                     
Oil Temp?                     
MAP?                     
RPM?                     
Prop RPM?                     
Prop Torque?                     
N1?                     
N2?                     
ITT?                     
EGT?                     
When Carb Heat is applied does engine resppond properly?                     
Does Exercising Turbos cause a rise in MAP?                     
Does Exercising Props cause a change in RPMs?
                     
Do Rapid Pitch Changes Seem to cause damage to systems during Runup?
                     
Do Pitch Changes cause a change in Prop Torque?
                     (Ususally Turboprop Only)
Can Props be feathered at full throttle?                     
If yes does damage result?                     
When props are feathered with brakes off will aircraft move along the ground?                     
When Beta Pitch is applied will aircraft Move backward along the ground?                     (Turbo Prop Only)
Is Beta Pitch Operating range set according to the POH?                     
What happens if Beta pitch is applied 'out of range'?                     
When Thrust Reversers are deployed will aircraft move backward along the ground?                     (Turbine Only)
Are differential brakes effective during taxi operations?                     
If Engine Oil Temperature exceeds recommended ranges does engine damage result?
                     
If Engine Oil pressure drops below recommended ranges does engine damage result?
                     
Can maximum recommended power settings be exceeded?
                     
Do guages properly reflect the result of a power setting that is too high?
                     
Oil Temp rise                     
Oil Press Rise/Fall if oil seals fail                     
EGT rise                     
N1rise                     
N2 rise                     
ITT rise                     
MAP rise                     
CHT rise                     
Fuel Flow rise                     
Will wheel Brakes hold the aircraft stationary during engine runups?
                     
Does the generator accurately indicate the turning on and off of systems?
                     
Momentary drop in voltage on system on?
                     
Momentary Rise in voltage on system off?                     
Can control surfaces be viewed from the cockpit when checking proper operation?                     
Do control surfaces appear, visually, to deflect the proper amount?                     
Taxi and Takeoff procedures                     
Will the aircraft make a 360 deg turn on the ground in accordance with the POH?                     
Does the rudder turn the aircraft as it should during taxi operations?                     
Do the wheel brakes apply and release as they should?                     
If taxied too fast will the aircraft exhibit adverse handling characteristics?                     
Does the aircraft STOP in the stated distance at the stated speed during ground operations?                     
On takeoff does the aircraft accelerate to takeoff speed in the stated distance?                     
For Single Engine Aircraft is right rudder pressure required to maintain proper runway alignment?                     
Does the aircraft require flap application for normal takeoff?                     
Is this consistent with the POH?                     
Does the aircraft rotate at the proper speed?                     
Does the aircraft establish proper climb and airspeed at the recommended power settings?                      
If equipped with retractable gear does the airspeed rise as the gear is retracted?                     
If flaps were required toes the airspeed rise as the flaps are retracted?                     
Is this a gradual rise?                     
Is  this a sudden rise?                     
Does the nose of the aircraft pitch down as flaps are retracted requiring the pilot to re-trim?                     
Is this pitch change gradual?                     
Is this pitch change sudden?                     
Are trim settings easily maintained?                     
Are they too coarse?                     
Are they Too Fine?                     
Does the trim indicator, if equipped, properly reflect the direction of the trim deflection?                     
                     
Climb / Cruise Observations                     
Does Climb performance deteriorate as the aircraft gains altitude?                     
Is this change in performance consistent with the POH?                     
Do the instruments properly reflect this difference?                     
MAP                     
CHT                     
EGT                     
RPM                     
Prop Torque                     
Prop RPM                     
Outside Air Temp?                     
Are adjustments to the engine, prop, and mixture settings required to maintain proper instrument readings?                     (Engine power and Fuel flow only for Turbines, Additionally Prop Torque for Turboprops)
Does the settings required accurately reflect data in the POH?                     
Can the simulated aircraft exceed it's service ceiling?                     
What effects are noted on the following when this happens?                     
MAP                     
RPM                     
Prop RPM                     
EGT                     
CHT                     
Fuel Flow                     
Oil Temp                     
Oil Press                     
Will the aircraft level at desired cruise altitude ?
                     
If yes does the aircraft hold it's speed or does speed gradually increase?                     
When entering cruise by the proper method. Does the aircraft settle into the desired altitude at the desired speed?                     
Do the power, prop and mixture settings accurately reflect data in the POH?                     
Can the aircraft be trimmed to fly virtually hands off in calm air at cruise altitude?                     
If equipped with an autopilot will the AP maintain altitude?                     
Will the Ap maintain heading?                     
Is the Ap course adjustable?                     
If yes does the AP turn the aircraft in the proper manner?                     
If Altitude is Ap adjustable does the AP bring the AC to the proper altitude and hold it?                     
If the Ap is speed adjustable does it hold the speed properly?                     
If a 'fully coupled' system can the aircraft be flown properly using only the AP for normal cruise , climb and descent operations?                     
Will the Ap properly track a VOR signal?                     
Will the ap properly intercept a localizer signal?                     
Will the AP hold the runway center line?                     
Will the Ap hold the glideslope?                     
                     
Descent and Landing                     
Does the aircraft accelerate when the nose is lowered?                     
Is this acceleration rate appropriate for this aircraft?                     
With proper power settings will the aircraft descend as stated in the POH?                     
Does airframe damage result from overacceleration of the aircraft?                     
Is this damage proper?                     
Will the flaps deploy at speds above that recommended in the POH?                     
If yes does damage result from such a deployment?                     
Is the damage consistent with what would be expected at that speed?                     
Can the landing gear be deployed above the recommended ranges?
                     
If yes, does damage to systems occurr when this is done?                     
Is the damage consistent with what one could expect by deploying the gear at that speed?                     
Do the flaps deploy as stated in the POH?                     
Correct number of settings?                     
Correct angle and % for each setting?                     
Does flap deployment cause the nose to picth up?                     
Is the change gradual?                     
Is the change sudden?                     
Dxoes flap deployment cause the aircraft to decelerate?                     
Is this change in speed consistent with what would be normally expected?                     
Does the deployment of the landing gear cause the aircraft to nose down slightly?                     
Is this change gradual?                     
Is this change sudden?                     
Does Gear deployment cause a loss of airspeed?                     
Is this loss consistent with what would normally be expected?                     
Does the aircraft respond properly to power setting changes when gear and flaps are deployed?                     
Is the pilot required to re-trim the aircraft after deployment of flaps and / or gear?                     
Will the aircraft maintain the stated rate of descent at the power settings stated in the POH?                     
Can the aircraft, with proper power management, be 'flown' onto the runway?                     
Can a full stall landing be made in this aircraft?                     
Is touchdown speed appropriate for this aircraft per the POH?                     
Does the aircraft, when properly landed, exhibit a tendancy to bounce more than it should?                     
Does the aircraft decelerate as stated in the POH?                     
Does full back pressure on the controls accelerate this slowing of the aircraft?                     
Do thrust reversers work properly?
                     (Turbine ONLY)
Does Beta Pitch work properly?
                     (Turbo props ONLY)
Do the wheel brakes slow the aircraft smoothly?                     
Are there any adverse effects noted if wheel brakes are applied above the recommended speed?                     
Can differential brakes be applied above taxi speed?                     
Does the aircraft ground loop or crash if one differential brake is applied on landing?                     
Will the aircraft ground loop or crash if the rudder is deflected at high speed during landing?                     

                     
Radical In flight manuvers                     
Does damage result from full or abrupt control movements at speeds in excess of those recopmmended in the POH?                     
Can the aircraft be rolled?                     
Can the real world counterpart perform this manuver?                     
Can the aircraft be looped?                     
Can the real world counterpart perform this manuver?                     
Are power settings proper?                     
If placed in a high banked very tight turn will the aircraft decelerate rapidly to stall speed?
                     
Will it loose significant altitude if opposite rudder is not applied during this manuver and prior to the stall?
                     
Does the Aircraft stall toward the low wing?                     
Just prior to entering this stall do the tail surfaces lose all control authority?                     
Will proper stall recovery, neutral controls and gradual back pressure as speed rises, bring the aircraft out of the stall?                     
Does damage result from this manuver?                     
Is this consistent with the POH? (Non aerobatic aircraft should sustain at least minimal damage as a result of this)                     
Are power on stalls entered properly as outlined in the POH?
                     
Are power off stalls entered properly as outlined in the POH?
                     
If placed in a high speed descent and rapidly recovered will the aircraft sustain significant damage?
                     
Can the aircraft be places in a sideslip?
                     
Can the pilot cause a significant altitude loss with proper cross control in a sideslip?
                     
Does the aircraft recover from this configuration properly?                      
If landed in a 'slip' configuration does the aircraft crash?                     
If landed HARD will the landing gear fail?                     
If landed gear up will the aircraft crash?                     
If landed at  a significantly banked attitude will the aircraft crash?                     
Can the aircraft make a proper two minute turn?                     
Can the aircraft be manuvered and landed using an instrument approach plate and following the procedure turns?                     
Will the aircraft make 'S' turns in the appropriate distance and time?
                     
Will the aircraft perform procedure turns and hit the proper headings?                     
If the rudder is deflected in flight will the aircraft skid?                     
Does the aircraft 'cross control' appropriately?                     
                     
Other observations                     
Does the magnetic compass turn in the proper direction when turning the aircraft?                     
Does the magnetic compass accurately reflect magnetic deviation?                     
Is there a compass card for this instrument and if so is it correct?                     
Does the Gyro Compass turn in the proper direction when turning the aircraft?                     
Does the gyro compass accurately reflect gyro drift?                     
Is the Gyro compass adjustable?                     
Does the attitude indicator properly reflect the aircraft's attitude?
                     
Do the VSI and altimeter readings match properly?
                     
Do engines stop if magnetos are turned off?                     
Can the ignitors on a turbine aircraft be turned off without causing the engine to stop?                     
Does the VOR guage accurately track VOR signals?                     
Does the NDB guage accurately track radio signals?                     
Does the localizer accurately reflect runway center line?                     
Does the glideslope accurately reflect the proper glide slope?                     
Is the ILS signal line of sight only?                     
Does changing the Kolosman reading on the altimeter properly reflect changes in the aircrafts current altitude?                     
Does the turn coordinator accurately reflect a standard turn?                     
Does the turn coordinator / turn and bank indicator accurately reflect a skid or slip?                     
Does the ball deflect properly and to the correct side of the guage?                     
Is slip roll coupling properly modled?                     
Is adverse yaw properly modled?                     
Is torque properly modled?                     
Is helical propwash properly modled?                     
Is 'P' factor properly modled?                     
Is weather adjustable in this sim?                     
If yes does the aircraft react properly to cross winds?                     
Is course drift and deviation correct?                     
Will the aircraft fly a proper true heading and end up where it should?                     
If turbulence is modled does the aircraft respond appropriately to air turbulence?                     
If density altitude is modled does the aircraft perform according to the POH at the various DA's?                     
Will the aircraft take off at DA above those specified in the POH?                     
Does the aircraft respond properly to changes in wind direction and speed?                     
Does the aircraft respond properly to wind gusts?                     

 

[This message has been edited by Shacker (edited 11-18-1999).]

[Fester']

Ding Ding Ding!!!!

We have a winner!

That was the longest post Ive ever seen, and I even "Read It!"

Seriously.  I think Shack (can I call you Shack?)  made some good points, and didnt read it as a kick in the groin to HTC.

Wanna see a REALLY fluffied up 17, go fly Full Realism in AW.  The 17 can out turn virtually ANY fighter, and does vertical moves like no other.

When we asked the developers about it they said

"Those big wings produce A LOT of lift"

 

[Smut]

No need to post a wall 'o text, I ain't impressed by it. It's a rather tired internet dodge.

What I was responding to was not your original post, but this one:

------SHAKER WROTE:

I recon but if 'accurate' flight models are going to be 'claimed' then some attempt at accuracy needs to be made wouldn't you suppose?

------END QUOTE.

Sorry, I see this as a slam at HTC. YMMV.

Please don't bore me with your "credentials", and I won't do the same.

-Smut

[Shacker]

I tried air warrior once.

once

 

[Shacker]

Go ahead and bore me some more you are already on a roll


For your edification perhaps I should have said

"I recon but if 'accurate' flight models are going to be 'claimed' then some attempt at
accuracy needs to be made wouldn't you suppose?" (and then gone on to say, for those who are looking for something to complain about)Folks making statements that are at odds with the facts does not help High Tech to further their goal in this area.

Understand now??????

BTW that "wall of text" might just help someone who has never beta tested make some quantative analysis about what they are seeing and report same to High Tech.


out



[This message has been edited by Shacker (edited 11-18-1999).]

[Smut]

LOL dude, I know more about beta testing flight sims than you'll ever know.

Keep 'em coming, I need a good laugh!

Hahaha!

-Smut