Ok, my solution for the non-problem of 'diversity'

[Karnak]

Mini D,

He said the perk prices on the jets / rockets would have to be increased.  He suggested 10,000 points for the Me262.

[wetrat]

Well, as usual, I agree totally with Urchin. In fact, I think that perk system would give me an incentive to start playing AH regularly once again.

On another note, what've you been up to urch?

[Lazerus]

First of all let me say that I think this is a great idea. I've been thinking about this myself for quite some time, but I just don't feel like taking the time to follow up on a suggestion and fighting off the flamers that refuse to read the original idea, and perform the proverbial knee-jerk. Trying to talk to MiniD on this subject appears to be an effort similar to his avatar. Mini, your responses, for the most part, ignored the crux of the idea and picked out the phrases that you wanted to use to argue with. The perk system, as it is now, is set up to reward players for flying planes that have lower statistical advantage over other planes. All Urchin is suggesting is that HTC increase this advantage, for the simple reason that it is not enough of an advantage now to balance the planes that are being flown. I don't choose to fly most of the planes on the top four list myself, and really don't have any problem with anyone that does choose to fly them. But I certainly would enjoy more of a variety of planes to fight, and I think that the added inentive might just do the trick. The main thing here though, is that it most certainly will not force anyone to not fly any plane that they can currently fly in the MA. A newbie will still be able to roll an La7 up from a capped field where I can vulch him in my a8. I say give it a try, maybe as just a trial for a few tours, and see what happens. They can always change it back if it is detrimental to the enjoyment of their product.

[Esme]

Good idea. It'd be nice to see early war planes have their day, instead of all those flipping tiresome late war planes.  I'd have a darned sight morerespect for folks racking up scores in early 109s, Spits and Zeros than I do for those who just keep racking up kills in Ponys, N1K1s, late Spits and La7s.  

Here's another suggestion: Make the late war planes available only well away from the initial front lines. That way, anyone wanting to use, say an La7 whilst their side is pushing forward will have to "ferry" it forward, landing at a base to refuel nearer the front before getting into the action. It'd mean it'd take a bit more concerted effort tomake the final push in the MA, and give those defending their last few fields a bit of an edge, so long as their better pilots didnt lose too many perk planes.

Esme

PS: I'd also like to see an experimental map with just 1 large, a couple of medium and 4 small fields per sector per country and as many GV sitesas the terrain can take.  large buffs only at large fields, and limitations on fighter types available at medium and large bases.   Make it possible to refuel and rearm fighters at GV bases (but NOT respawn them). Buffs can rearm and refuel at any airfield they land at, but only spawn at medium or large fields, asappropriate. That way a ground war is encouraged, and losing a single air base hurts.  It could induce large ground wars to try to surround and capture airfields.  fighters can land nearer the frontline than where they took off, but have to be careful about doing it.

[Furious]

The problem with the idea is that perk points are meaningless.  What am I gonna do with thousands of more perk points?

People are going to fly what they can get kills in.  If their skill level or their perception of their skill level is such that they feel they need an edge, they will take what they percieve to be a plane that gives them the best odds of getting a kill.  Getting any kill is much more rewarding to them than the chance to earn more perks.

Most fights against the percieved "uber" planes are easy enough to win anyways.  Putting these folks in the crappier planes just means the MA will be a giant baby seal hunt.

[Urchin]

Furious, perk points aren't very useful now, I'll grant you that.  Some people won't fly the perk planes because they aren't that much better than the free planes, and they don't seem like a good 'investment' of perk points.

That said, most of the people that don't like the perk planes might like them more if losing one wasn't such a 'big deal'.  Some people don't like losing perk points, and usually all of the perk planes are so rare that if you do take one, you end up fighting every enemy in the area while the friendly planes are all wondering what happened to their fights.  Some people have flown the perk planes, and have decided purely on performance that they don't really like them that much.  I'm one of those people, maybe you are too.  

Now, I think changing the ENY system to a purely proportional system would do two things.  First, it would lead to a greater number of perk planes flying around.  Hopefully, it would lead to a greater number of perk planes actually fighting, since if you lose your plane you can get another one really easily.  HTC, for whatever reason, has set the 'bar' for free plane performance at the La-7.  None of the free planes are better all around (for fighting anyway) than the La-7.  Furthermore, only the Tempest has anything like the performance the La-7 has as a perk plane.  The Spit 14 is to slow to catch one, so is the F4U-4 (although it is a lot closer), and the Ta-152 isn't even close.  So all of these perk planes flying around won't be that great a disruption to the current Big 4 type fliers.  They will, however, give similar performance to the P-51 or La-7, depending on which plane you pick, but instead of seeing yet another P-51/La-7, you'll get to fight a F4U-4 or Tempest.  

Second, I think it would lead to an increased number of 'under-utilized" planes being flown.  Depending on how much someone wants to fly some perk plane, they might go with a middle of the road plane like the La-5 or the 109G-2, or a completely ununsed plane like the C202 or P-40.  Either way, diversity in the MA will increase on that end.  By the way, apparently you and your squadmates have a much lower opinion of the average pilot than me and my 'elitist' supporters.  You and Dejavu seem to think that nobody except the very best pilots can get kills in anything but an La-7/P-51/N1K/Spit, which is patently untrue.

[Charon]

Very good suggestion. It would work for me.

Charon

[Max]

I like it Urchin...certainly worth a try.

DmdMax

[hitech]

Urchin: And exactly how do you fit the perk planes ENY value into this skeam? Btw it basicly how we set the values already, and they are NOT random.

Another thing your system does not take into account is plane popularity based soly on a historical basis. i.e. just because a plane has more kills and is flown more, dosn't make it the better plane.


WarChild, you don't have a clue what we have been doing. Try critisizing something you know about.

HiTech

[CptTrips]

I don't play that often nowdays, but I just don't see much of a problem.

In my opinion, the diversity you see now in the MA is the best its ever been.

If I remember my last sortie correctly I launched a pony and climbed towards a contested field.

I remember seeing a friendly inbound with a B-17 and passed one otw with a c-47.  Got in a fight with a f6, got buzzed by a 190D, chased after a p-38 a while but didn't follow him to the deck.  Saw a gaggle of la7's, spits, and Hurri's defending the field.  Helped vulched a lanc that was trying to up (what was he thinking) and finally got kilt by a F4d.

(shrug)  That was just one sortie.  I often run into p47's, 109's, niki's on occation, even the odd 205.


Frankly, I think some of you drama queens need to go out and get laid or something.


Wab

[WarChild]

Originally posted by hitech



WarChild, you don't have a clue what we have been doing. Try critisizing something you know about.

HiTech [/B]

Hitech, I didn't make any comments on what you are doing. I made comments on my preception of what isn't being done anymore.  Things are done different and my opinion stated.  I apologise you felt threatened enough to lash out on a customer.

One last point. My comment was 100% on what I know about.  My experince as a 3 year customer of your company.  How many of those do you have left? How many are leaving and how fast?

On the positive note. Such interaction with customers as you are currently engaging Urchin IS one of the things I always loved about this company.

Good day.

[Charon]

Another thing your system does not take into account is plane popularity based soly on a historical basis. i.e. just because a plane has more kills and is flown more, dosn't make it the better plane.

Like the N1K2 or the Lagg 7?

My favorite spit is the 16 (which isn't modeled) followed by the 14, which is modeled, but which costs 60 perk points to fly and is an easy loss unless you keep it in full cherry pick mode. A high P-51 or a co alt La7 can easily run it down, which wouldn't be that bad if it was a 1v1 world, but it usually just slows you down enough to get killed by the crowd.

I'm not one of the gangbangers - most of the time I fly solo or with a single wingman. I like to dogfight. The only reason I fly an LA7 (which I do dogfight, even against spits up to about 3 v 1 odds) is that I hate to be killed by some nameless face in the conga line. An LA7 allows me to find good fights and seperate when the red cloud shows up on the horizon. Period. Speaking as a now common LA7 pilot I would have no problem with an environment where there is more of a 1943/early 44 focus. Light perks on the 44 set, eny adjustments, whatever. It would be an improvement to me at least.

With the exception of the F6F and 205, there doesn't seem to be too much lower-end diversity. [edit: The Zero, FM2 and Spit 5 play a role in base defense, but I haven't been able to get may kills using these planes lately because they are just too slow to catch the Jabo runs.] Frankly, since I don't mind losing but still have enough of an ego to hate being easy meat to a cloud of 1945 monsters, I won't be adding to that diversity very much myself. At the same time, the occasional tempest of Spit 14 wouldn't even be that bad a thing, but they seem even rarer than the 1941 set, IMO.

I have virtually no idea what the HTC goals are with the perk setup, but I can only assume it is to preserve a mainstream 1944 environment because that is exactly what it does in the MA. In today's MA where speed is life for the "solo" flyer who actually likes to land a  few, or even get a few kills at planes moving faster than 400 mph on their way to Jabo a field, then it does limit choice.  [edit: Maybe it's more of a solo flyer vs squad/numbers flyer thing, but it is noticable to me.] Still worth the $15 though.

Frankly, given the Jabo capabilities of the 44/45 set, a 1943 arena might even take care of some of the steamroller jabo gamplay we're seeing now as well. Just my $.02.

Charon

[Urchin]

Originally posted by hitech
Urchin: And exactly how do you fit the perk planes ENY value into this skeam? Btw it basicly how we set the values already, and they are NOT random.

Another thing your system does not take into account is plane popularity based soly on a historical basis. i.e. just because a plane has more kills and is flown more, dosn't make it the better plane.


WarChild, you don't have a clue what we have been doing. Try critisizing something you know about.

HiTech

I'd set the perk planes ENY to 1, just like the Top 4.  I would also adjust the perk value on the Me262, although I don't know what value to start with, as you would want that plane to stay comparitively rare.  The only other perk plane that has any kind of significant performance advantage over the La-7 is the Tempest, so seeing more prop perk planes in the MA would not effect the character of the arena much, in my opinion.

As far as plane popularity goes, I actually think most people select their ride based on how effective it is, not how popular or 'well-known' it is to aviation enthusiasts or the general public.  The P-51D and Spitfire are popular because they are effective.  The guns are good on both planes, the performance is good on both planes, and they are both amoung the easiest planes to fly for their respective 'schools' of fighting.  Speaking from a personal standpoint, I had played some boxed sims before I played Aces High, so I knew something of the various planes that had participated in the war.  I knew all the big U.S., British, and German planes, and I knew about the Zero.  Until I started playing Aces High, I never knew there was a version of the F4U that had 4 cannons- and I suspect neither did many people.  They chose it over the F4U-1D for one reason- it was more effective.  

I had never heard of the N1K2 before I started flying Aces High.  I suspect the same is true of many people, and it my opinion people use it because it is simply more effective than most planes, for turnfighting.  The La-7 is the same story, except I'd be willing to wager than most people (even the really well informed ones) had never paid much attention to the Eastern Front, and would probably not have known the La-7 from a hole in the ground until they started playing Aces High.

As far as the current ENY values, yes I exagerated in describing them as random.  I apoligize for that, I know they are set in accordance with usage.  However, the values are somewhat out of date, and in some cases don't make much sense if they are based on usage.  The 110G2 and 190F8 are good examples, as is the P-51 vs La7.  I'm sure there are other examples as well, but those are the only two that sprung to mind.

[Furious]

No Urchin, it is not a matter of contempt.  It is simply a matter of perception.  People percieve that they will be more deadly in the "uber" planes.  For the most part they are right, as you yourself have stated these planes are more effective and fairly forgiving of mistakes.

My point is that more perks will never be as rewarding as a kill message.  People are going to fly what gives them the greatest reward.

...and I want them to.  I want to get in as many fights as possible.  If a certain plane or group of planes enboldens one to fight over say a less forgiving or slower or more difficult plane, then I am all for it.

If perks were truly useful it might work, but we don't have anything really worthwhile to spend them on.  Now if you could, for example, spend perks on increasing personal fuel loads at bases with 25% fuel, or taking ordinance when bunkers were down, or repairing damage while on the rearm pad, etc. then maybe more perks would be an enticement to try the less capable planes.

Having a million dollars does you no good when there is nothing to buy with it.  

Until there is something worth buying, there is no incentive to earn.

[Arlo]

But of course ...

A seperate Pac dedicated arena would certainly be nice and inspire players to fly and try some of the newer IJ plane models that HT would obviously add to balance it.

And the SCW arena would provide a wonderful change of pace for the dedicated dogfighter!

The perk system is just a limit to what a dweeb can fly.

Yeah ... I'm a dweeb!