Author Topic: best fighter/bomber ww2  (Read 1490 times)

Offline devious

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best fighter/bomber ww2
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2003, 12:15:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
That me 262 was so good we almost lost the war.
:rolleyes:


IIRC, when "Wacht am Rhein" started, it was about 3000 allied a/c vs. about 500 LW, most NOT 262s.

Still, it took 6 months to defeat them at a 6:1 numerical advantage.

The allies produced the axis to death - a viable strategy. But not proof of having the better equipment - look at Sherman (even Fireflies) vs. Tigers.

Best Fighter-Bomber: Me 262

Piston engined...  many qualify. I`d go with the Dora.

Offline TeeDog

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« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2003, 12:29:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Zanth

The P-51s destroyed 4,950 enemy aircraft in the air, more than any other fighter in Europe.  Further, they accompished this with a K/D ratio of 19:1.  (Mighty impressive numbers for the author of the F4U-4 book quoted to dismiss.)


Well if you go by K/D Ratio. The F6F had a 19:1 with over 75% of this kills being in the Air. Half of the P-51s were on the ground

Other
F6F      19 to 1
P-38      10 to 1
P-51      19 to 1
Spitfire   10 to 1
Fw-190      8 to 1(2 to 1 over Spitfires)
Tempest      11 to 1
F4U      11 to 1
P-47      4.6 to 1

Offline rod367th

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« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2003, 01:31:00 PM »
Read [post guys not any f4u  just f4u 4.............



 not my book  this comes from a think tank put together to see what a good fighter bomber would be in future, so to predict furtue they looked at pass, Were not talking desk jockeys.
 I would post whole report but to big. alot of testing was done at end war by lockheed  spit,tempest,p47 etc.  based on f4u-4 's speed roll and capability they decided f4u-4.



 p47 couldn't fly past 22k with drop tanks/and was unstable with full load out in most pilots hands. p47 would have to drop bombs in dive no matter if target all ready dead, If he didn't he would tear wings off, where as f4u-4 was stronger and could pull out dives with ord still on plane. just some of many facts they came to.




Morris stanley ww2 357th 8th af   flew p47's morris is William l stanleys older brother...................... ....so I'm sure he knew what a p47 could and couldn't do................


 remeber what planes were used after ww2  f4u-4 went onto korea and beat migs.  plus did most ground attacks in korea. that speaks loud I would think.

Offline Gixer

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« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2003, 02:47:26 PM »
Errr, when it comes to best fighter,fighter/bomber surely the ME262 cleans up all others as nothing else comes close and it's design was far ahead of anything else at the time.


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Offline Scootter

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« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2003, 03:19:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by devious
IIRC, when "Wacht am Rhein" started, it was about 3000 allied a/c vs. about 500 LW, most NOT 262s.

Still, it took 6 months to defeat them at a 6:1 numerical advantage.

The allies produced the axis to death - a viable strategy. But not proof of having the better equipment - look at Sherman (even Fireflies) vs. Tigers.

Best Fighter-Bomber: Me 262

Piston engined...  many qualify. I`d go with the Dora.


Sorry to disagree with you, Part of winning a war is being able to stand the field. If you out produce and out number the other guy you most often will win. If you have a bomber stream over you factories day and night I don't care what you are capable of building you wont build them in numbers. The key is winning not getting awards for the best stuff. The Germans lost the numbers game bad, pure and simple. Some times good is good enough to beat better if better cant be there.
    BTW most all of the  tanks against the Germans in 1938 were better then them,just in to few numbers.

Best fighter bomber P-47 (air cooled and rugged with a massive load) F4uD would also work almost as well.


Swallow was to fragile to be a fighter bomber (slow firing pair of 30mm and only 2 two bombs)


Best bomber intercepter Me-163 or Me-262 (that was the idea after all)

Best fighter is a tough one as you need to factor in things such as range, speed, manuverabilty, fire power, ruggedness, climb rate, etc. Like in the MA as in real life it depends on the mission.

My vote P-51 with a close 2nd to the Dora and Spit and the P-38








just my $.02
« Last Edit: June 30, 2003, 03:33:20 PM by Scootter »

Offline MajorDay

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« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2003, 03:39:37 PM »
How many did Corsair shot down MIGs in Korean War? :confused:

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2003, 05:05:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MajorDay
How many did Corsair shot down MIGs in Korean War? :confused:



One did.


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Offline MajorDay

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« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2003, 05:08:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
One did.


Ack-Ack
Hmmmmm......Are you sure?   :D

Offline TeeDog

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« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2003, 05:28:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MajorDay
Hmmmmm......Are you sure?   :D


To be honest, Corsairs shot down a few Mig-15s. I don't know the number. But I think it was around 4 or 5... I believe most of them were F4U-5s

Offline Imp

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« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2003, 05:53:45 PM »
The author should compare it to a 1945 P51 instead of a 1942-43.

Its like comparing a 190A8 with a 190D9.

Offline bj229r

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« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2003, 06:16:16 PM »
ive been lusting fer P47N fer 2 years---it had as much time in as F4u4
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers

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Offline chance-airwolf

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« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2003, 06:42:56 PM »
rod367th & other bent-wing lovers,

If you haven't read it already, pick up a copy of Boone T. Guyton's book titled 'Whistling Death' (ISBN 0-517-57526-4).  Mr. Boone was a test pilot for Chance Vought during and after WWII.  He flew over 105 types of aircraft during his 45 years as a pilot and tells of both the good and bad during the Corsair's development, flight testing, and deployment.

Guyton credits the Corsair with destroying 2,140 enemy planes while suffering only 189 losses (an 11 to 1 success rate).

The Corsair is a Marine's plane and not just anybody can handle it (... and one of these days I'll figure out how to fly it like I know how)!

Chance2

Offline Murdr

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« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2003, 06:49:22 PM »
P47
546,000 combat sorties with a combat loss rate of only 0.7 percent.
132,000 tons of bombs dropped.
135 million rounds of 50 cal.
1-1/2 million hours of combat.
20 million gal of fuel consumed.
11,878 Enemy planes destroyed; 1/2 in the air; 1/2 on the ground.
160,000 military vehicles destroyed.
9,000 enemy locomotives destroyed.
More victories than any other
American aircraft in W.W.II.

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2003, 06:56:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Imp
The author should compare it to a 1945 P51 instead of a 1942-43.

Its like comparing a 190A8 with a 190D9.


The P-51D was a 1944/45 fighter. It, along with its Dallas built twin, the P-51K, were the latest and last models to see combat in the ETO. Unless you prefer the lightwight P-51H, which could do no better than the D model as a fighter-bomber. FYI, the P-51D served in Korea, the somewhat less durable P-51H did not.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2003, 07:18:59 PM »
Hmm... Some guys seems confused about what defines a fighter-bomber. Rest assured that the Bf 109 is about as far away from definition as I can imagine. Understand that the F4U-4 could LIFT the equal of the weight of an empty Bf 109F!!!

Some F4U-4s were field modified (reinforcing the hardpoints and adding anti-sway braces) to lift two 3,000 lb bombs. Unmodified, those hardpoints were engineered to carry 2,000 lbs and did so frequently. 4k was a common load, especially in Korea. Max underwing load was rated at 5,200 lbs for field operation but 6k could be safely accomodated. However, like the later AU-1 model, there were speed restrictions. For dive bombing with that load, the landing gear were usually dropped to act as speed brakes.

P-38s could also lift 4,000 lbs. When 310 gallon drop tanks were used, each carried about 1,900 lbs of gas, not counting the weight of the tanks themselves (and they were HUGE).

What about the P-47, specifically the P-47N. You must remember that the N was designed as an ultra-long range escort fighter. Due to its new wing design, a considerable weight of fuel was carried in the wing. Hardpoints were limited to 1,100 lbs max. While the P-47N was fast (467 mph at 31,600 ft), it was VERY heavy. Acceleration was less than that of the D-30/40 Jugs. Climbs was no better than the early C and D models before the switch to paddle-blade props. That new wing had improved ailerons. However, there was no improvement in roll rate if the wing tanks were full. Lighter P-47s (read that as D models) were slower than the F4U-4 until above 28,000 ft. Naturally, the F4U-4 could get to 28k long before the Jug could.

As to the Typhoon... Well, it was a failure for the role intended. Poor climb, structural flaw in the aft fuselage (killed several pilots when the entire tail fell off, later reinforced), a roll rate inferior to some popular SUVs and sub-standard performance above 15k nearly tanked the project. I haven't even mentioned the saga of that hand grenade called the Napier Sabre. However, the RAF saw some merit in its low level speed. Like other aircraft, the Typhoon evolved into the role it eventually filled. Nonetheless, it could not carry a war load remotely close to that of the P-47D-30-RE, much less that of the P-38 and F4U-4. With the Typhoon, you could load 2k in bombs OR eight 60 lb rockets. Compare that to the American fighter-bombers. Even the Mustang could lift more with 2k in bombs AND six 5" HVARs. Even though the Tiffie's airframe was extremely rugged, its cooling system was not. Obviously that wasn't a concern for the P-47 or the F4U-4 pilots. It wasn't much better for the Tempest, which boasted better speed and much improved climb over the Typhoon. However, it could lift no more than the Tiffie.

Me 262A-2a could carry just two 250 kilo bombs. Very fast, but otherwise unimpressive. Quite a few 262A-2a sorties were flown against the Ludendorf bridge at Remagen. From what I understand, they were lucky to hit the river, much less the bridge.

Of all the aircraft listed in this thread, how many were still flying combat missions in 1953? Which ones were still on carrier service in 1959 with major powers, and in front line service (with the French) until 1964?

Someone mentioned the Sea Fury. It was a post-war aircraft, of the same generation as the F4U-5. They had very similar performance, but once again, the Corsair could lift more than twice as much ordnance.

Were there better pure fighters than the F4U-4? Yeah, but only marginally so. Was there a better close support aircraft than the F4U-4? Maybe the Mosquito and A-26 could match it in load, but neither could survive in the same sky with this Corsair.

In the category of "all around", the F4U-4 was almost certainly the best to see combat in WWII.

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: June 30, 2003, 07:23:39 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.