Radar, the realism thrown out the window.

[Thunder]

I personally like the concept in general. What is does is give us all a reason to reflect on the stategic elements to be succesful as a country and not JUST to dogfight or Just to bomb! I think it may give us reasons to work together once we recognize the benifits of coordination. It has been lacking in all sims to date and one thing that IS ALSO REALISTIC about warfare is that it takes COORDINATION not just that a bunch of fighter pilots or bomber pilots that like to do there own thing. Maybe HiTech Creations is making it that way to achieve better gameplay for all interests. Not Sure??? Since the each field radar controls the dots within its own area, coordination in killing the tower to shut it down it esential. Getting buff strike up that are not easily identifiable require pre-knocked out radar paths and then major hits at city and HQ and Radar Complex to effectively nuetralize the effects. Its easy! Get fighters and bombers and C-47 pilots working together for common goals itstead of creating an arcade arena. Hmmmm I think HiTech Creations may have thought of that! HATS OFF to the creators IMHO! I like the direction that we are going and I can only say to the guys that are working hard to make this the greatest WWII combat sim is KEEP IT UP!

Salute,
Thunder

[smash]

Don't like it in the plane.  IMHO it should be available on the ground only.

[Altair]

If HTC claims AH is the most realistic WWII on-line sim the RADAR should be withdrawn, totally in flight and downgraded in tower.
You dont have radar in EAW or other sims like that.
Just add  text message from "ground contoller" saying the aprox bearing and distance of nearest nmy, something like arrow in WBs, but disable it if you are flying too far of a friendly field.
I asume the RAD will be the actual way only in the beta.
Other way I'll be back in Warbirds.

[SMERSH]

Because of this unrealistic radar, my initially great hopes for Aces High are in great question. I've not logged into AH since I first downloaded the .39 patch.

I don't anticipate getting into AH any more in the rest of the beta or future cuz this radar has dashed all sense of realism I get in this sim arena.

It's kinda like in Star Wars episode 1 where Jar Jar binks destroys all suspension of disbelief turning the whole experience into a bunch of kiddie nonsense.

I have nothing against Hitech or AH, in fact I think AH has the potential to basically be the best online flight sim experience if it's not screwed up.

[Minotaur]

This Friendly/Hostile radar is IMO a good compromise to reality.  No one has really said how it could be done better?  This is just one method and it seems OK.  

If you don't like the red and green dots or bars, I can live with it either way.  It is even either way.

I believe this compromise is OK because the arena is VASTLY smaller than any thing in real life, but is still large.  In real life you were extremely lucky to even make a contact on fighter patrol.  That would not be fun for a game, high realism or not.
Planes often engaged only on interceptions where the location of the hostile was known.
 
I know personally a P-51 pilot who flew during WW2.  I am not sure where or when he flew, but he said that he saw very few German planes in the air.

I was reading some post mission reports the other night of "Brewster Buffalo" pilots (F2F?).  Each account said that the Japanese planes were just about the right location and attitude that the British Radar Operators said they would be found at.  These pilots knew where to go from their takeoff brief, or received in flight vectoring.

The text scroll, is NO WAY as effective of a communication as a radio might be used in real life.  I miss 90% of what scrolls by, so the radar operators (system/host) can not communicate in this fashion.  Maybe HTC will put in voice recognition or a voice responding AI Radar Operator?

Of course the countries with poorer radar facilities will suffer in an Historical Arena.

Mino

[Fester']

Kinda suprised High Tech hasnt popped in here to explain his ideology behind implementing "onboard realtime radar" into a WWII flight simulation.

Personally I think its a step backward, and is a significant SA crutch, but Im not a game designer, Im a game player  

still curious to see what the boys at HTC have to say on why they did it, and what they were trying to accomplish with it. <serious>

[Minotaur]

I just read another thread.   In that thread Hitech said something that I thought might apply here.  The thread is "Is engine management in the winds".

He said, in essence, that this is an ACM simulator game.  It is not a realism simulator game.  

You have got to find the hostile, to simulate ACM right?  Better this, than the simulation of searching for them.  

What is good game play?  I'll wait and see.    

Mino

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 11-21-1999).]

[Sundog]

I don't mind the RADAR, however, I do like the idea of only being able to see accurate RADAR in the Tower. That coupled with accurate location of your friendly's and general location of the enemy (per version 38)in the planes, I think would be ideal. Then whenever anyone entered a tower they could call enemy vectors to their team pilots before flying.

[Curly]

 For once. I agree with Wardog.
 DITCH the 'dar.

 <cough>

 Please.

    Curly

[Pongo]

Bring it on boys.
I like the radar. But then I asked for it two weeks ago. It makes surviving in a 47 way easier not harder. You can see the cons from a distance and know to hold back for escort. You have the information to ask for cap on a field and your country man can look at the sector and the fighter jocks will go "hey maybee there are some kills up there". The defence can coorinate way better but can also be spoofed by numbers and feints.
What are we crying about. We all know that both sides in western europe had highly evolved and efficient RW systems that could steer a single fighter onto a target. All things are compressed here so we have what looks like way too much info for the time period. But it will balance out as there is no command authority to take advantage of it.
No one can say "XXXXX quit vulching 2 for your thousands of EXTREMELY UNREALISTIC kills and get up here and defend your loved ones for a while, or your out of here. So its just information that can be used or not. An interesting resource that the buffs seem to love.
I think that it can be further limited, I would lower the setup time for a newly captured base. I might even do somthing like the red bar for large formations. At the point where the resolution of the radar could not distinguise the units in a fir ball then it turns into a blob and you cant count enemys or friendlies in it. Chaff of course. shielding by ground features would be great.
Keep it, evolve it, perfect it.
Pongo

[-kier-]

Pongo-

The problem is the game then becomes a radar simulator.

I know when I see a slow moving dot from a rear field that a buff's a comin'. I will climb and meet him.

I know when there are dots hanging on the periphery of the battle that the C-47's are a comin'. I can just wait at the field.

Look, like the external view, this may just be a temporary condition. I hope so, as I think inflight radar takes away more than it adds (like external view). I'm not about to quit flying because of it though.  

[Pongo]

You are right, but is that not realistic? This is a late WW2 simulator. They saw PR spits coming for hundreds of miles. They just couldnt do anything about it until they got the right planes.
So many people complain that it wrecks the game because people know too much(perfect SA) did anybody see that this weekend? I think not.  The real perfect SA that is unrealisic in this game is in relation to Vulching. You could not drop flaps and turn and burn with the victum over any airfield because you new that the 2 flak guns where down for a nother 15 miniutes. Some of these guys would be brought down by pistol fire they are so slow and low. If there is one thing that history has shown and still shows its that knowing what has happend on the ground is impossible. Yet the most popular passtime in this game depends on it.
We dont even get alt and bearing fer crissake which is what real radar gives doesnt it....
 

[214CaveJ]

I dinnae keir, kinda hard to id a buff like that since you can't see red dots unless they're in a quad that's covered by a friendly field.  Last night Handy and I were chasing a 17 south of field 2, but it was outside the coverage area of the field, so there was no dot to guide us.  Just zig-zaging through the quad til we saw a dot.

------------------
Air power is a thunderbolt launched from an egg shell invisibly tethered to a base.         -  Hoffman Nickerson

[-kier-]

You may be right in the planes, but you can in the tower. Omniscience is not a good thing for the most part IMHO.

[Minotaur]

Just my thoughts on RADAR returns from the tower ONLY.  

You can debate all day wether it adds or subtracts from game play.  Now you get to have TowerGroundControllerDweebs.    Which might be in itself a seperate way to play this game.

Having dar in the tower only, is no more realistic than not having dar at all or having dar all the time. Nor is it more realistic than having force bar sliders only or not at all.

However; it is not any less realistic.

Mino