Time to give up on the norden.

[Pongo]

Well after a nice 9 month experiment in "realistic" bombing the game play of bombing in AH has been destroyed. Most people dont really ever use the sight. Most formations of bombers are destroyed on the deck.  Any bombing other then a cake walk kind of mission where you have fields arround the enemy strat is a waste of time. You will be chased down like dog meat by suicide interceptors. Since field attack from alt is nearly imposible in a contested area. And strat targets are only really viable in milk run mode. Why bother with the bombers?
I propose that the formation bombers with thier wimpy guns and crazy bomb sight be deligated to formation use only. If you want to take off a single bomber and fly it in the old way with the pickle barrel sight then that should be in the game too. As it is bombers are useless to most people and in most circumstances.

I do enjoy the calibration..it just doenst work in the arena.  And the formation guns are worse then the old single guns.
I would say that the bomber rehash just didnt work.

[Kweassa]

So we go back to the ol' 25k single lanc pin-point destroying all three hangars on a small field?

 I agree with many of your points, but the problem is not with the site. The introduction of the norden-style is a step in the right direction(although might need some refining..), and we cannot just step backwards.

 The problem is while the effectivity of the bombers have changed, the territorial combat aspect remained constant. The zone concept in large maps did bring some interesting changes in strategical aspect, but the importance (and abundance) of strat targets are still way too low. The tactical sense of the MA has also remained still.

 Bombers are weapons that force high levels of attrition - unless an attrition aspect starts influencing the lands of AH in a profound way(and a way that doesn't totally kill gameplay..), ultimately bombers will remain pathetic, whatever changes in themselves we advocate.

 The bombers stepped forward, but the MA refuses to follow. I think we should try pushing the MA forward, instead of dragging the bombers back.

[Suave]

I see a lot more bomber formations RTB in the CT, usually landing a kill or two also .

[Suave]

Actually if you recall, the period that bombers were most rarely used was after the introduction of the new field capture system . When the new bomber formation system was introduced we began to see more bombers again .

[Leslie]

Imo, the game was more fun with the old bomb sights.  To equalize bomber formation longevity, with the calibrated sight, the bombers really need AI gunners, i.e. a full gunner crew.

Flying, calibrating, bombing, and keeping an eye out for opponents is too much for one player to handle effectively.  Having a gunner aboard doesn't help much, imo.

So keep the calibrated sights, and make it so the formations require multiple fighters working together to bring them down.  The formations could use their AI gunnery similar to the way field ack is at bases.  Right now, as it stands, bomber flying is the only elite aspect of the game.  It should be so anyone can take up a formation of bombers and have a chance at hitting a target.




Les

[SirLoin]

Keep the "Norden" if you up a formation......

Give us the "Old" site back for solo buffs.

[Replicant]

I think what Pongo suggests is a fair(ish) compromise.  Even now I just take a single buff up most of the time and I'm fairly successful with aiming too.  

There are of course pros and cons.  The old bombsight meant that you had to intercept the buffs because you knew they were going to hit their target.  Seeing buffs at 25k+ wasn't so much an issue since I still see buffs at that alt even now.  

With the new bombsight then if I do see high alt buffs now then you can pretty much let them go by because they'll only hit their target if they're good buffers - of course I'll intercept if they're heading to HQ.  

I also tend to see many formations of buffs coming in below 5k alt so they can pork the entire field (and probably because they can't aim at higher alts!).

[Easyscor]

There were always guys in bombers at 5k.  It's because  they don't have the patience to climb higher.

The problem isn’t with the bombsite.  The problem is there is so much misinformation out there you could fly with 6 different experts and still get useless information.  Find someone who rarely misses, doesn’t use full throttle or a dive just before reaching the target, can use a cross wind approach and doesn’t depend on a last second calibrations.  When you find these people, just follow them and ask questions instead of telling them what YOU have to do to hit the target and you might be surprised what you can learn.

Before the new bombsite, in a single Lanc at 30K, two of us would pork fuel, dar and barricks at 7 to 10 fields along a front, to soften it up for our guys.  This made for some really unhappy furballers who had to wait until all these bases were captured or rebuilt to have their kind of fun so you'll never see the old bombsite come back.

[Pongo]

Never is a powerful word.
Your implication is that I dont know how to use the norden and your mistaken. You can satisfy your self of that really quickly.
Kwassas point is a good one. The mechanics of the sight are excellent and I do enjoy it. But in the game its of dubios value. Usually the targets you want to hit are well behind enemy lines. Yet your real chance of success is minimal. So when do you see bombers 80% at least are crawling along the ground in formation. Hopeing to kill a town that can be killed by a Typhoon in one pass. Our game just doenst work with the bombers as they are. Are they useless? No. But they are a marginalized part of the game. As to porking fields. So what? right now its being done by a hord of dweebs. No different  except the skill involved.
The number of times it happend in the game was trivial, compared to the real use that was made of bombers then and know.

Its fun to see a big bomber sorti like the Knights put on last night. They must have had 60 bombers up. So the formation thing is great for that. But the sights force you to abbandon any real usefull application of bombers. Watch for an opertunity to cake run and get it over with if you care about your score. But to really set out with bombers anymore to accomplish something in regards to the game..
very very very very rare.

The game play answer to porking fuel isnt to hinder bombers in a way that fighters are not hinderd. Its to change the game play mechanics of Fuel. Put in a fire fighting vehicle that can fix the fuel fires.

I dont think that bombers were changed in this way to ballence them though. I think it was to make them more interesting. And it does. But it makes them far less usefull.

[Toad]

Agree with Pongo.

[Replicant]

Originally posted by Pongo
The game play answer to porking fuel isnt to hinder bombers in a way that fighters are not hinderd. Its to change the game play mechanics of Fuel. Put in a fire fighting vehicle that can fix the fuel fires.

Yup, along with mobile fuel bowsers that you can spawn from nearby bases to fuel planes ala GV supplies (10 supplies carried, each supply = 25% fuel for one aircraft).

[ALF]

Originally posted by Kweassa
So we go back to the ol' 25k single lanc pin-point destroying all three hangars on a small field?

 

Hate to be a party pooper....but I can destroy 3 hangers from 25k in a b26 half the time...and in a B17 I can kill 4 hangers ALL the time...the lanc....thats good for at minimum 6 hangers

The problem is not the new system...it has made a much better game.....the issue stems from a large number of players with less expeirence and less patience.  

Half the time I up a buff formation I get 3/4 of my fun AFTER Im emptie...killing off the numerous silly fighters messing with me   BWAHAHAHAHA!

All in all, the new system is a great success and has finally brought SKILL to bombing...takes practice and stuff

[Easyscor]

Pongo I don’t mean to offend anybody and you've made some good points about the bombers not being effective. I’ve said the same thing on these boards but you’ve said “Our game just doenst work with the bombers as they are.”  It’s not the bombers that are out of step, it’s the targets and more specifically the strat system that’s out of whack, on this I think we agree.

Most of the time, bombers are not used as I’d like to see them used but hey, it’s their $15.  Now a single bomber formation can easily pork all the fuel at a small or large field but he can no longer affect 4 or five fields as we could before.  That’s probably a good thing.

As for large bomber formations and the general level of skill, I love large bomber missions, they’re great fun, but you must admit it’s amusing to watch the results sometimes.  The other night, the Rooks I think it was, sent a huge formation of bombers and escort, into Knight land and hit a City and something else but the damage done was about 75% to the City and only 25% to the other facility. That’s not much damage for the number of guys involved.  If these had all been dedicated bomber guys, the effect on the Knights resources would have been much worse.

Where we disagree is

I propose that the formation bombers with their wimpy guns and crazy bomb sight be deligated to formation use only. If you want to take off a single bomber and fly it in the old way with the pickle barrel sight then that should be in the game too. As it is bombers are useless to most people and in most circumstances.

The only thing I can agree on here is that most people can’t use bombers, but why would I continue to take up a formation of B17s and fuel pork a single field from 16K when I could up a single Lanc and fuel pork 4 fields from 30K with no chance of missing?  It’s a rhetorical question but I think HT has answered it before in his usual round about way.

If you're asking for changes, ask that the A-20 (but not the Boston), the Stuka and all the other dive bombers without level bombsights be removed from the "Bomber" category in both the hanger and the scoring.  Ask for a separate category for "Dive Bombers" so rides like the IL-2 can keep their outside views.  IMO none of these rides belong in the level "Bomber" category because the skill level is so different.  These are the rides your milk runners choose for their cake walks on strat tagets behind the front lines.  Some are fast, most are effective and they do wonders for the bomber scores.

[Easyscor]

Originally posted by ALF
Hate to be a party pooper....but I can destroy 3 hangers from 25k in a b26 half the time...and in a B17 I can kill 4 hangers ALL the time...the lanc....thats good for at minimum 6 hangers

The problem is not the new system...it has made a much better game.....the issue stems from a large number of players with less expeirence and less patience.  

Half the time I up a buff formation I get 3/4 of my fun AFTER Im emptie...killing off the numerous silly fighters messing with me   BWAHAHAHAHA!

All in all, the new system is a great success and has finally brought SKILL to bombing...takes practice and stuff

Right on all 4 counts ALF.  Although, there are things that must be taught before any amount of practice will help and you can't learn it by RTFM.  The only way they'll get it is if they are taught by someone who has spent the last 6 months experimenting and reading these boards.

[AVRO1]

The old bombing system was just way too easy.

The new one asks too much of the pilot.
I dont have 2 heads and four arms damn it!!!!!!

How the hell am I suppose to gun while I calibrate the bombsight?
I cant do that so I am defenseless unless I got a gunner which isnt the case for alot of people.

Maybe if the bombsight didnt require so much work.
I would prefer if the calibration reduced the cone of drop of the bombs.
If you calibrate well your bombs dont disperse much.
High alt bombing would be tough because the cone would be longer.
Make it so that at 30K you would need big bombs to hit fuel or other targets of the same size.
If its hard to hit fuel at very high alt then people wont bother.
If they come lower then they are easy to intercept.

Maybe auto calibration of limited quality if you fly level for a while. That way you can defend your bomber instead of being shot down by a con you never saw which is frustrating.
Then you would have to drop larger loads to kill targets because calibration isnt very good.

Its not realistic but it would work alot better then the current system IMO.


Lining up for target is almsot impossible on the map.
If we only had headings for waypoints we could set then we could do it easily. That would reduce the frustration.
Give us the ability to set waypoints on the map and a HDG counter so we know what heading we have to go.
B17 Navigator was there for a reason.


Calibration speed counter would be nice too so we know what speed to fly and if we accelerated and need to slow down.


Bombers are too much work for to little gain IMO.
I dont want the bombers of old, they were to damn easy.
Id just like something that doesnt require me to have as many arms and heads as Vishnu. Cuz I dont.

An frustrated ex-Bomber pilot.