Author Topic: Any way to fight in 190's?  (Read 1952 times)

Offline SLO

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Any way to fight in 190's?
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2003, 08:43:29 AM »
1 things for sure.....ya got some very good drivers here trying to give you some tips.....


I'm more of a Urchin type(naturally agressive) then a mandoble type(agressive but smart)........

I WILL turn a D9 against anything.....I will extend but i will come back.....most don't expect a D9 to be agressive.....its those first 2 or 3 turns that count...like Urchin described.

fly it....try not to be such a ***** like some in 190's......20k perchers.....

oh ya....Wilbuz is pretty good too....some others but I can't remember there names right now:cool:

Offline Ecke-109-

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Any way to fight in 190's?
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2003, 09:16:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SLO
fly it....try not to be such a ***** like some in 190's......20k perchers.....


hehe..i forgive the 190 all bad manners which i  normaly condemn.
If it is 'high-alt camping' or running.
As far as i can see, 190s really need to do such things to survive.

Offline mars01

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Any way to fight in 190's?
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2003, 12:15:34 PM »
I have to agree with Duedel,

The 190s are formidable, no you shouldn't follow anyone in a circle, but I can out scissor the best of the turners in an A5.  

With a fuel load at 50% or less she’s a good bird at slow speeds you just have to get used to throwing her around.  If you fly it right you can be very aggressive and most people will underestimate it's capabilities.  It just takes time to get used to them.

My best advice is, fly the D9 in a boom and zoom, turn and extend mode - Fly the A5 like a 51 with bigger guns.

Offline devious

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Any way to fight in 190's?
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2003, 12:56:46 PM »
One hint on turning in the 190s: If your enemy goes into a turn too hard to follow (any turn ;) ) and you want to follow roll in the /opposite/ direction from the enemy, and gently barrel roll around his flight path. At the bottom point of the roll, you usually can pull your nose in front od him and get either a nice snapshot or following opportunity.

But turning should only be done as a finishing move in A8/F8/D9. After you have bled your E, and you will, you`ll be a sitting duck. If I have the choice, the only planes I really engage in a close in fight are the Ponies, Corsairs, Jugs and Tiffies. Everything else should be BnZed to death.

If you`re looking for a dogfight, go with the A5 -  it can do amazing maneuvers, remember the killer rollrate and capitalize on it.

BTW I want a 4 x MG151 Fw-190 A6. That would be the day :D

Offline MANDOBLE

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Any way to fight in 190's?
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2003, 03:06:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mars01
IWith a fuel load at 50% or less she’s a good bird at slow speeds


30% of fuel is always my time to RTB and disengange. With so few fuel (50%) you will be able to fly 190s as much agressively as you want, but you will be a real menace for less than 5 mins, unless you dont plan to land your plane.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Any way to fight in 190's?
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2003, 04:02:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Yup. BnZ is a passive tactic in nature.



It's not a passive tactic.  It has evolved into a passive tactic by those that think you make your pass and run away but BnZ tactics used by someone that knows to to properly execute a BnZ attack, is quite aggressive.  The whole point is to use your energy and altitude advantage to maneuever and set up your target for the kill.   The only way to set the target up is to be aggressive in your attacks, otherwise you give the target a chance to maneuver away or build up E to be able to meet and counter your attacks.


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Offline SlapShot

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Any way to fight in 190's?
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2003, 04:41:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
It's not a passive tactic.  It has evolved into a passive tactic by those that think you make your pass and run away but BnZ tactics used by someone that knows to to properly execute a BnZ attack, is quite aggressive.  The whole point is to use your energy and altitude advantage to maneuever and set up your target for the kill.   The only way to set the target up is to be aggressive in your attacks, otherwise you give the target a chance to maneuver away or build up E to be able to meet and counter your attacks.


Ack-Ack


Exactly ... If I am low and slow in my Spit V and I see a BnZer take a non-agressive zoom (45 degree angle) I am cool with that. It just gives me more time to build up some speed and E. If I see the BnZer take a more agressive zoom (75 to 80 degree angle), I know I am in trouble ... I may dodge him for a few passes, but will eventually lose enough E so that on one of the booms, he will get a good angle.
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Offline mars01

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Any way to fight in 190's?
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2003, 06:00:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MANDOBLE
30% of fuel is always my time to RTB and disengange.


Yeah I think the D9 blows through the fuel pretty fast, but I was talking about the A5.

I usually up with no less than 75% if it's a short hop.  Prefered drop tank and 75%.

Once the fight starts I drop the tank, I fly aft tank down to 50% or 25% and then fly the forward tank throughout the rest of the fight.  After a few BnZ, I'll be at 50% forward tank.  At this point I can be more agressive.  

Maybe you thought I meant 50% one tank - 50% forward 50% or less in the Aft she turns nice.


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Offline Kweassa

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Any way to fight in 190's?
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2003, 06:51:47 PM »
Quote
It's not a passive tactic. It has evolved into a passive tactic by those that think you make your pass and run away but BnZ tactics used by someone that knows to to properly execute a BnZ attack, is quite aggressive. The whole point is to use your energy and altitude advantage to maneuever and set up your target for the kill. The only way to set the target up is to be aggressive in your attacks, otherwise you give the target a chance to maneuver away or build up E to be able to meet and counter your attacks.


 That's the whole point, Ack. You and I, aren't saying different things. It's just that we don't share the same term when saying "BnZ".

 The two sequence of the pure "Boom" and "Zoom" essentially looks forward to minimizing the risks, rather than maximizing the chances.

 It became widely recognized through the potential it holds - giving the wielder all the cards to deal. However, there is also significant importance that this tactic became essential when certain plane types, which cannot risk a committed engagement due to inferior performance, began to develop the arts to the extreme. With the "BnZ" approach, one can go for a more aggressive engagement, try some more passes, or, if all else fails, just run away.  

 However, you seem to describe the whole process from the beginning of the engagement to the final shoot-down, as "BnZ".

 The process, the term of "BnZ" itself, cannot be in anyway described as aggressive. The aggressiveness comes only after BnZ, not with it. The aggressive intent comes from the capable pilot who runs the whole engagement, with a specific purpose to continue the attack AFTER the BnZ, not WITH the BnZ itself.

 And the part that comes after the initial stages of BnZ, is what people call "E Fighting", and this, is "aggressive fighting." Doing boring passes again and again like seagulls diving to catch fish, is not something one would call 'aggressive'.

 BnZ itself, is a passive, over-hyped tactic, being tossed and thrown as an "answer to all" - somebody asks specific questions about tactics and everybody answers "BnZ".

 Well, how many times has anyone actually been shot down by a BnZ? I'm betting not that many. It takes helluva gunnery to do that, and not many people, even in the world of AH, can do that.

Offline MANDOBLE

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Any way to fight in 190's?
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2003, 07:22:15 PM »
Kweassa, of course, literally, you are right. A P51 comming fast, firing and running fast is technically BnZooming. Just like a 190A8 turning in a mile is technically TnBurning.

Agressive BnZ should be done in a scale dependant on the number of enemies. If one vs one, the attacker should try to be always very close to the enemy, but far (or faster, or higher) enough to be outside his guns while getting an E-state/angle/altitude where the enemy cant evade the next attack and cant counterattack it. When done vs several cons, the distance/speed/altitude and possition should be carefully calculated to be a credible inmediate danger for all the enemies while having a clear way to attack inmediatelly at least one of them. Everytime I see an enemy comming fast, firing and running I simply ignore it. When you find a real BnZoomer, you can do whatever but ignore him, and more than problably, you and several of your country mates will end dead in few minutes. IMO, this is the most effective and reallistic aerial combat in a multybogey environment.

On the other hand TnB is whatever but an agressive way of fighting. You, usually, will be "agressive" just for one target, while being the target of multiple bandits. Basically, this way you are not a credible danger for your enemies, so, your agresiveness is totally innefective.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Any way to fight in 190's?
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2003, 08:55:25 PM »
Here's something that a long ago player in AW (and I think es-Kesmoid) Vossman (no, not that Voss) wrote up on the art of BnZ.


Vossman's BnZ tips


Ack-Ack
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Offline Widewing

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Any way to fight in 190's?
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2003, 09:04:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mars01
I have to agree with Duedel,

The 190s are formidable, no you shouldn't follow anyone in a circle, but I can out scissor the best of the turners in an A5.  
 


I fly everything, but I have logged a lot of time in the 190A-5 and A-8 over the past several tours. Yes, you can use that excellent roll rate to scissor your way into an overshoot. But, if the enemy pilot knows 190s real well, he'll know how to counter the scissors.

How's that done? Quite simply really. Pull the nose up, roll inverted and evaporate the guy as he rolls into the next reverse. He's killing his E by reversing his turns, you kill yours by doing a rolling yo-yo. When you come back down, you are accelerating on a course very near to his reciprical, even if you miss the shot, you have converted into enough E to chandelle, then vector-roll right back onto him. He will not have enough E to pull nose high to counter. Now he's low, slow and soon to be very dead. Try it.

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: July 08, 2003, 09:06:28 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline bfreek

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Any way to fight in 190's?
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2003, 10:44:33 PM »
other than turnfighting or BnZ ?  yeah here's another way ram them at medium speed  LOL.

what other way is there to fight in an a/c ? theres only 2 ways.

Offline mars01

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Any way to fight in 190's?
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2003, 12:41:42 AM »
Wildwing why would you assume that the 190 would just continue the scissors?  If I see him going vertical, then I pull vertical and you end up in a vertical scissors.  It's a wild ride either way you look at it and you know your in a fun fight.

mars01

Offline MANDOBLE

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Any way to fight in 190's?
« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2003, 02:16:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by mars01
If I see him going vertical, then I pull vertical and you end up in a vertical scissors.  


With a 190s? Unless you are very low on fuel, you will have no chances in the vertical starting at low speed after the scissors. More than problably, you are going to stall the 190 inmediately.