Author Topic: Maneuvers that may save your life!  (Read 1196 times)

Offline davidpt40

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Maneuvers that may save your life!
« on: July 16, 2003, 05:00:00 AM »
Heres one that has saved me many times-

I usually fly the P51 or F4U.  Often times I lose airspeed and altitude and end up fighting superior turning aircraft on the deck.  Through scissoring I can often times get firing solutions, but that can put me into a HO situation.

 When I see the other aircraft about to fire on me, if I am able to get below his altitude (this is on the deck mind you), it will cause him to either abort his attack or make him point his nose down to get me in his gunsight.  This maneuver has never failed me.  I quite often get maneuver kills with it, and the majority of the time my opponent cannot get a gun solution on me.

The next is a classic but I have been getting many kills with it lately; the Zoom climb (works best in P51).

With a high airspeed, entice a co-alt (or lesser) aircraft to pursue you.  When he is about 1.5k behind you, enter into a 90 degree climb.  Don't pull too many Gs or you will lose too much airspeed.  As you near the apex of the climb, and airspeed is around 100, pop flaps and get your nose pointing down.  Usually the enemy aircraft is so intent on getting a gun solution on you he will stall and you can fill him full of lead.  

Feel free to post any maneuvers that you find handy.  I have yet to find a maneuver that works well when you are on auto-climb and unexpectedly find a bandit at d300 on your 6.

Offline Fishu

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« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2003, 05:08:43 AM »
Ahhh.. the second one is my favorite when I'm the one behind.
When I see they go for a loop or vertical maneuver, I just level up or go to shallow climb and at the right moment, pull up to shoot up the slow vertical target :D

If I can't make it in time to do that, then I simply evade his dive, let him go past and then get behind him.
He don't either have enough energy to run by diving after hes stalled, while I've reserved the E... more often than not, he can't accerlate fast enough.

Either ways, that makes up for a juicy target

Offline Flyboy

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« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2003, 05:27:23 AM »
flew a 190a5 yesterday

after killing 2 planes i was low on the deck and was bounced by a p51

i looked for a nice hill pointed the nose on her and started barrel rolling, pulled over the hill in the last second





then looked back to see the boom :D :cool:

Offline Duedel

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Re: Maneuvers that may save your life!
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2003, 05:55:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by davidpt40
The next is a classic but I have been getting many kills with it lately; the Zoom climb (works best in P51).


U've ever been in a 109? ;) :)

Offline davidpt40

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Maneuvers that may save your life!
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2003, 06:30:21 AM »
I remember seeing an episode of Wings where a P51 pilot tells of killing a 109 using this exact maneuver.  However he said the 109 stalled mere seconds before him and the two aircraft were so close he could clearly see the German pilots face and the huge 30mm cannon.  

Now heres an interesting question-  Did the real life P51 lose the thrust from the radiative exhaust effect in a stall?  If so, thats nearly 25% thrust.

Offline Scootter

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« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2003, 08:25:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by davidpt40
I remember seeing an episode of Wings where a P51 pilot tells of killing a 109 using this exact maneuver.  However he said the 109 stalled mere seconds before him and the two aircraft were so close he could clearly see the German pilots face and the huge 30mm cannon.  

Now heres an interesting question-  Did the real life P51 lose the thrust from the radiative exhaust effect in a stall?  If so, thats nearly 25% thrust.
[/QUOTE


ahh 25% thrust from the radiative exhaust is a bit (way) much.

Do you realize what the pounds of thrust would be at 25% of the thrust of a full song Merlin would be. Damn why were jets ever invented. I read that the thrust at cruse offset the radiator drag (no small feet) but never 25% total thrust.

Offline Alpo

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« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2003, 09:09:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by davidpt40
I remember seeing an episode of Wings where a P51 pilot tells of killing a 109 using this exact maneuver.  However he said the 109 stalled mere seconds before him and the two aircraft were so close he could clearly see the German pilots face and the huge 30mm cannon.  

 



Sounds like Clarence "Bud" Anderson's story from "To Fly and Fight"

Quote

This is what I see all these years later. If I were the sort to be troubled with nightmares, this is what would shock me awake. I am in this steep climb, pulling the stick into my navel, making it steeper, steeper . . . and I am looking back down, over my shoulder, at this classic gray Me 109 with black crosses that is pulling up, too, steeper, steeper, the pilot trying to get his nose up just a little bit more and bring me into his sights.

There is nothing distinctive about the aircraft, no fancy markings, nothing to identify it as the plane of an ace, as one of the "dreaded yellow-noses" like you see in the movies. Some of them did that, I know, but I never saw one. And in any event, all of their aces weren't flamboyant types who splashed paint on their airplanes to show who they were. I suppose I could go look it up in the archives. There's the chance I could find him in some gruppe's log book, having flown on this particular day, in this particular place, a few miles northwest of the French town of Strasbourg that sits on the Rhine. There are fellows who've done that, gone back and looked up their opponents. I never have. I never saw any point.

He was someone who was trying to kill me, is all.

So I'm looking back, almost straight down now, and I can see this 20-millimeter cannon sticking through the middle of the fighter's propeller hub. In the theater of my memory, it is enormous. An elephant gun. And that isn't far wrong. It is a gun designed to bring down a bomber, one that fires shells as long as your hand, shells that explode and tear big holes in metal. It is the single most frightening thing I have seen in my life, then and now.

But I'm too busy to be frightened. Later on, you might sit back and perspire about it, maybe 40-50 years later, say, sitting on your porch 7,000 miles away, but while it is happening you are just too damn busy. And I am extremely busy up here, hanging by my propeller, going almost straight up, full emergency power, which a Mustang could do for only so long before losing speed, shuddering, stalling, and falling back down; and I am thinking that if the Mustang stalls before the Messerschmitt stalls, I have had it.

I look back, and I can see that he's shuddering, on the verge of a stall. He hasn't been able to get his nose up enough, hasn't been able to bring that big gun to bear. Almost, but not quite. I'm a fallen-down-dead man almost, but not quite. His nose begins dropping just as my airplane, too, begins shuddering. He stalls a second or two before I stall, drops away before I do.

Good old Mustang.

SkyKnights Fighter Group -CO-
R.I.P.  SKDenny 02/03/1940 - 02/19/2012

...

Offline davidpt40

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Maneuvers that may save your life!
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2003, 10:39:16 AM »
had to look it up scotter.  The Mustangs radiator was like a jet, but mainly just helped to compensate for drag.

Quote
the case of the Mustang, the air duct pumping system at full speed at 25,000 feet was processing some 500 cubic feet of air per second, and discharge speed of the outlet was between 500 and 600 feet per second relative to the airplane. This air jet counteracted much of the radiator drag and had the effect of offsetting most of the total cooling drag.   To offer some approximate numbers, the full power propeller thrust was about 1,000 pounds   and the radiator drag (gross) was about 400 pounds, but the momentum recovery was some 350 pounds of compensating thrust--for a net cooling drag of only some 3% of the thrust of the propeller.


Thanks for posting that story alpo.  Did Anderson kill the 109?  Seems like I remember him saying he did.

Offline gofaster

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« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2003, 12:31:51 PM »
Yes.  He got the 109.  Bud Anderson was only hit once in a Mustang, and that was by groundfire that left a hole as big as a shilling, which is what the ground crew used to patch the hole.

Offline Sikboy

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« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2003, 12:33:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by gofaster
 that was by groundfire that left a hole as big as a shilling, which is what the ground crew used to patch the hole.


As opposed to a hole as big as a Shill, which would have ended his day.

-Sik
You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline Gixer

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« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2003, 07:39:15 PM »
ALT-F4 seems to be working very well for alot of people lately.


...-Gixer
-Hells Angels-

Offline runny

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Maneuvers that may save your life!
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2003, 11:40:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sikboy
As opposed to a hole as big as a Shill, which would have ended his day.

-Sik


Yeah, especially if it was me.

Offline ebgb

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Zoom climb
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2003, 02:40:17 AM »
I find the P47's do this well too - especially the D11 provided you have more E than your opponent.  It has excellent low speed handling and due to it's weight, very good E retention.

Defensively, I find the best manuever is the one that takes your opponents pip off your plane and keeps it there.

Offline Rutilant

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Maneuvers that may save your life!
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2003, 02:48:38 AM »
What in the HELLS is that thing you have for an avatar, runny? a booger?

Happy 100th

Offline hazed-

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Maneuvers that may save your life!
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2003, 05:05:12 AM »
I have several moves which i use. My 'bag of tricks' are made up of many i have read about, or I have invented and later found descriptions that cosely match what i found out myself.
Theres nothing more satisfying than inventing a move and finding out an ace used the same maneuver in the war.

One Very usefull move for 190s when around 5k and are attacked by a faster opponent from behind.

As the enemy closes to around 800 yards roll inverted and power dive vertically toward the ground. Spiral dive at high speed (but try not to exceed your best rolling speed) I use either a scissor like movement or i touch in some rudder and ailerons to sort of corkscrew my way down.
If your attacker is a LA7 or spitfire, a p51 or typhoon, they all suffer from a slower roll than the 190 and this is your weapon.

As you both scream toward the ground he will undoutedly be shooting at you. Aim your 190s nose directly for the ground and try to get your attacker into an overspeed dive which will start to lock up his roll capability.At the last moment use a Hard roll with a kick of full rudder to help you around, looking back you roll until your enemy appears to be inverted and pull out of the dive at the last moment.
Your attacker, if you have judged it right, will try to match your course and discover he cannot match the roll and therefore has to pull out before you and as you are both inverted 90 degrees this means he pulls out in a completely wrong direction.
Use this time to either extend and escape or if you have caused the other player to overjudge his aircraft's performance theres a chance he will either auger on his pull out or he over rolls and mushes his aircraft (losing lots of E) you can go into a clean low G loop over maintaining your speed. They may try to loop also and go for a HO and if you are lucky they will try for an early solution and pull hard and lose speed. You can then either go for the HO or better still use your superior loop exit speed to convert to altitude again if you can see the enemy aircraft has lost its speed and energy putting you in a position of advantage for a drop in attack.

This method can also be used against mountains and canyon walls.


A rather dangerous, but often last chance evasive for 190a5s when i have a enemy chasing me down when im low is to go flat out full wep then zoom climb at a shallow angle untill i can judge im at just the right height. I throttle back to about a 3rd. Kick in hard rudder and aileron, go inverted in a yawing/sliding nose down dive for a reversal , once all energy and speed is reduced enough i often whack on Flaps and head for the ground , hit wep and dive (if needed, TIP: :o they do get a snap shot oppertunity here) then pull out in the oppersite direction to where i was headed when i begin the move.Often im scraping the grassblades!! :) This can shake off a pursuer if you give them no time to react. On the slightangle zoom climb, this often makes the guy behind you SALIVATE with greed. They think 'Lovely , hes climbing ill close in and kill him',this often means as you climb they choose to go level to close the distance, then just as they get their distance right for a pull up snap shot solution, you suddenly snap roll inverted and slide out of plane, tuck under them and break in the oppersite direction.

The greedy player will try to shoot you, They do get the chance for a snap shot , but they often like the idea of maintaining their speed as they do it which means they will not be able to match your maneuver without hitting the ground or reducing their speed in a split second enough to follow you.If they are good and follow you into the dive you again must use your roll and pick your exit according to the direction your enemy is facing (usually matching your curve) you pick the exit they will find hardest to match. deception-moves like part rolls or using rudder to point your nose the wrong way at the start of maneuvers will often be enough to confuse your attacker.This may only claim you enough time for a single HO or a little more time to get to a safe area but obviously with cannons this one chance is often enough or a few seconds can get you to a friendly countrymens protection.
Remember some arent greedy though! :D

I have 'invented' a set of 'moves' in the 190 which I would guess many others have done the same, havent read it in any books though so thats one thing im surprised by and i must say i havent had it used on me yet. I call it 'my moves' because its such a nice set moves!! its partly a trick but it has all the right affects on your attacker :D hehe
Im not revealing it to the masses though as I think some moves should be kept a bit quiet :) if we all read it it wont keep on working!! hehe .

the main thing is be unpredictable. Do exactly what you think is the last thing your attacker would think you would do.

Dont always be ready to to start your moves early.That last second is where you want to make your attacker make HIS decisions. I must say though I also agree with the recommendation that says If you are attacked turn to meet the attacker.Aggresive is GOOD :)

good thread though, great for a newbie.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2003, 05:34:41 AM by hazed- »