3 Months Passed. No WMD. 10Bears Wins Bet.

[Steve]

Cool Devious,  thanks for clearing up the "dumb" thing for me.

[batdog]

Originally posted by devious
Steve,

I don`t mean to label all americans as dumb. "The americans" don`t exist, as "the germans" or "the jews" or "the women" don`t. The general public seems to be *dumb* in the sense they eat all the bull**** the administration feeds them. It`s not only alleged WMD, it`s Total Information Awareness, it`s The Responsibilities of Freedom, it`s Project New American Century, it`s The War On Terrorism (err you can`t declare war on individuals...), it`s having a president that through his contacts manipulated the ballot (right word?).

Where`s the pressure ? A (post-WW2) german politician`s days in office would`ve been over long ago.

Note I also think the germans are dumb. Breaking their own civil rights (see flight passenger data sent to the US - plainly in violation of our rights),  hailing surveillance measures just like "the americans".

I don`t want blind, agenda-driven protest. I`m missing guys who SPEAK THE F**K UP and DEMAND EXPLANATIONS other than "I didn`t read the dossier" or "I don`t recall" (like our beloved Chancellor Kohl)

Someone who leads a country to war by basically repeating over and over again reasons that are later found to be in fact fabricated --- nonwithstanding the fact Saddam needed to be removed, and he worked on WMD (with, shamefully, german technology) --- should be out of office in a hurry. EVEN if they find WMD later.

I would have had no objection to a line like "we got to stop this mass-murdering dictator". But "WMD ready at a 45 minutes notice" were clearly a lie.

And accepting such a charade is *dumb*. So to clear it up: If I say "the americans are dumb enough...." I don`t pick upon thinking individuals. I`m about a quiet, *dumb* mass that wouldn`t speak up when THEY - the administration - would deport blacks (or whites or jews), wage war, build concentration camps, steal billions of tax dollars or marks, undermine civil rights and so on.

It`s not even the Bush administration preaching war on fabricated facts when they could have had a good real reason - it`s that they believe (and probably rightly so) THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH IT. Believing the *dumb* masses won`t speak up and make like they didn`t notice beeing lied to.

No...you dont get it. The US see itself as the guy on the whitehorse doing the right thing. We viewed Saddam as a mad man, a butcher and a threat to us. We didnt support the war due to the fear of WMD's really. We supportrd it because we though here was a chance for us to make a postive difference rather than letting him continue his ways w/us turning our heads.

There is a REASON why the polls show that even if WMD's arent found..we still feel the war was justified.

[SirLoin]

Originally posted by Toad

I remain of the opinion that 90 days isn't all that much time.

Isn't it ironic that the same people who scoffed at giving UN weapons inspectors more time are now asking for just that?

[Toad]

What? You aren't going to give the current inspection team 12 years? Isn't that what you gave the UN team?

[crowMAW]

Originally posted by Toad
What? You aren't going to give the current inspection team 12 years? Isn't that what you gave the UN team?

The initial UN team got results less than a month after they arrived in Iraq in June of 1991.  They intercepted a convoy of trucks trying to move parts of Iraq's nuke program late in that month.  In August, 2 months after they had arrived, they had identified that Iraq had built a much larger than previously known bio weapons program and had located several key bio weapon facilities.  By May of 1992, they had discovered chemical WMD and by July of 1992 they had begun to destroy those chemical WMD.  

By 1997 UNSCOM had destroyed or verified the destruction of:

38,537 filled and empty chem weapon munitions
480, 000 liters (690 tonnes) of chem weapon agents
>3000 tonnes of precursor chemicals
8 types of delivery systems
The al-Hakam bio weapon production facility
426 pieces of chem weapon production equipment
91 pieces of related analytical instruments
131 Scud missiles
15 mobile launchers
28 operational fixed launch pads
32 fixed launch pads under construction
30 chemical missile warheads

All of this while being harassed and even shot at or detained by Saddam's government.  The inspectors were not allowed to use helicopters nor did they have unfettered access to question employees at suspect facilities.  Nor could they offer rewards (financial or otherwise) that could offset the disincentives that Saddam would have imposed on anyone who talked.

I agree that 3 months is too short, but our teams should be able to locate something major if given a six months to a year...if it exists.  Especially now that they can conduct an unfettered search.

[Nash]

Originally posted by 10Bears
Thx Nash, but today is the 17th not the 19th..

Hey 10B... I don't know why the 19th is what you're looking at . Maybe it's 3 months ago on the 19th that the cessation of hostilities was declared? I forget now what that date was, but I went back to that post and counted 90 days from it. And it landed here on the 17th of July. The bet wasn't 3 months - it was 90 days.

[NUKE]

Originally posted by Maniac
Why didnt you djust say : We are gonna start an war with Iraq to remove Saddam from power.

Things would have been so much easier then...

Let's not forget that it was the UN that said Iraq was not in compliance with it's disarmament obligations. Why is it that the UN agreed Saddam probably had WMD, but now everyone is pointing the finger at the US for lying about them?

The UN's last resolution says it all, only the UN was and is incapable of acting to back up  it's words.

[Toad]

Well, Nash, it's good to see it meant enough to you to count the days.

10B, haven't got an email from ya with an address as yet.

[Toad]

Originally posted by crowMAW
but our teams should be able to locate something major if given a six months to a year...if it exists.  Especially now that they can conduct an unfettered search.

Yep, agree totally.

But I still think it's funny that guys that were howling about giving "more time" a UN team that had had 12 years... with the result that the Security Council passed 1441 unanimously... are now howling at us after 3 months. I mean.. hypocrisy or what?

Just one of those things that makes me smile.

Come a year, when the Prez campaign is gaining speed and no WMD, I assure you I won't be smiling at G. Bush.

I'll give him enough rope. But it snubs up short right around May of 2004. But that's just me.

[Nash]

May 2004?

I guess I misunderstood... I thought the bet I made with you involved you writing letters asking for Bush's head - after 6 months. Forget the money. That's just something you wanted to throw in because you said you'd be doing the letter writing whether you bet me or not.

But as I've said repeatedly, that's the only thing that mattered to me. Are you saying now that after 6 months passes, you'll pay the 45 bucks, but won't write anyone until next year? That's not the bet I thought we made.

[Toad]

Nash:

 don't have any say in your government's affairs... but maybe I can get me some.  If they find WMD in Iraq to a degree that you and I can reasonably consider it a threat to other nations and is clearly a violation of their '91 resolutions and 1441, and/or evidence of a nuke program that goes somewhat beyond mere blueprints (some kind of equipment/infrastructure will suffice), then I'll pay a month's worth of AH to your squaddie.

If they don't find this stuff, then you write your congressman or applicable representative asking for Bush to take a long hike.

Toad:

I'll be writing EVERY SINGLE Senator and Representative in the US demanding Bush's resignation if they don't find this stuff within a reasonable period. And I mean bunches of it and I mean validated by various newsmen and UN inspectors.

If he's sending young American's out to fight and die on on trumped up charges, I want him hung, not just in prison. And you can save this on your HD so you can confirm it matches what I'm saying if and when the time comes.

So really, you can save your $$$$, because I'll be doing it anyway. But if it makes ya feel better, I'll take yer money after 10Bears decides if he's in or out.

This is what I found, but I remember the six months too. Thought the focus of that was the money because I'd be writing the letters anyway in six months to a year. Just don't remember if that the "six months" one include the money AND the letters.

I'll write 'em at six months if you thought that was the bet, but I can tell you now that I'm not going to be as worked up about it in October as I am in May. In October, I'll be disappointed and suspicious In May, I'll be pissed because to my way of thinking, that's "if and when the time comes". In October, I'll be disappointed and suspicious.

BTW, right now, I'm neither.

Which do you want? I'm too tired/drunk to do anymore searches for what we said other than that initial agreement.

[Nash]

Good deal. I'll take the letter writing in 3 months. I reckon you might do more of it later on your own account, anyway.

However worked up you are, or however you word it, is of course up to you. Oh - I did request a few times that you post here a copy of what you write but I don't think I've gotten an answer. I can't recall if that was officialy part of the bet or not, but I sure would appreciate it if you could enlighten myself and the rest of us here with it. Please?   You really can keep the money... but if you insist, I'll let ya know later what charity to send it to - or if I'm gonna be greedy with it... Or maybe I make it painful for you and ask that you make the cheque out to, say, Hillary Clinton.

Er... I'm making it sound as if the result is a done deal... Of course anything can happen.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by batdog


There is a REASON why the polls show that even if WMD's arent found..we still feel the war was justified.

When did we start justifying wars with opinion polls?

[Maniac]

You might have been willing. The Bush administration was not. I find it odd that they would not allow Blix the time to conduct the inspections, but now bleat about needing more time.

Sandman, never tought of it this way before!

[Toad]

Originally posted by Nash
I'll take the letter writing in 3 months.

I did request a few times that you post here a copy of what you write but I don't think I've gotten an answer. I can't recall if that was officialy part of the bet or not, but I sure would appreciate it if you could enlighten myself

1. I'll write at 3 months but I don't think that was part of the bet; I'm giving you this point as the act of a gentleman. As I said, I won't be all that worked up in 3 months and the letter will reflect that. I'll be worked up big time around May.

2. You requested it, I told you "no". I did say I'd send YOU a copy by E-Mail, however, it won't be for public distribution. You agreed to that, somewhere.

You previously specified a charity; I saw it in the search last night. So control your greed, that's who's getting the money. Man of  your word, eh?