Walter Nowotny's grave

[straffo]

Rotfl

[Dowding]

Argument? Your post was 'argument'? It was a usual self-pitying diatribe about 'PC gone mad', barely disguised to have a modicum of relevance to the subject at hand. As is often the case, you start with a barely reasonable premise, extend it to some ridiculous extreme and turn it around, more or less saying "Is that what you want? Cos that's what'll happen!"

You went from George Washington, to slavery, to Berkeley CA to the black civil rights movement within a handful of sentences.

Come on, mate, I know you can do better than that.

[GRUNHERZ]

It is exactly the same thing dowding, there are actually schools named after Washington that were criticized because he was a slaveholder and so a racist and no longer acceptable to hold the honor as the schools namesake... That attitude is NO different tahnwhats going on in the Nowotny grave thing. They had 60 years to remove Nowotnys grave - do you think its merely a coincidence that it only happend now after the emergance of  wild PC behavior?

Of course i wnt from washington to the civil rights movement - thats why schools named after, a slave owner- are being renamed after malcom X, funny as he was a hateful figure early in his career.  The indians came in because washington state is famous for its native popuations - Sattle ring a bell - so I thought it would be appropriate too.

The Berkely thing was a sort of joke - I recently found out that Berkely was named after this Irish Missionary who converted Indians to christianity and have been seriously thinking of starting a prank campaign to rename the city.

[Dowding]

I think there is a danger that self-pity and auto-oppression creeps into discussions regarding political correctness. It gets on my tits as much as over exuberant application of PC does.

I'm not sure a comparison of Novotny and Washington is valid in anyway.

Edit. I thought the Berkeley thing was your usual rant about college degenerates. You've gotta admit that has been done to death.

[GRUNHERZ]

cc Dowding

Heres the thing the direct Washington/Nowotny comparsion is not perfect, of course. But the motives are identical and the timing is IMO not coinciodental, I feel its PC run amok and this allows these things to get passed by politicians..

BTW will you join my campaign to rename Berkeley? I think its a perfect prank considering the politics and history of the place... It would be evil..

[midnight Target]

So its the new PC that is demonizing the Nazi's?

puuuleeez.

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by straffo
It depend of the definition of hero to you use :

Except 4 I don't see what apply to Nowotny and he was not Greek either

sense 3 perhaps ?

Agreed, Straffo.. that makes sense.

From my obviously slanted perspective, I can pay my 'respects' to a skilled warrior who fought for the other side, but in my eyes he ain't a hero... his 'herculean' accomplishments were in the cause of a great evil.

One 'aw-sh*it' erases 250 'atta-boy's'.

[-dead-]

Originally posted by GScholz
I think you people got this a bit wrong. They are not trying to get Nowotny moved from a war cemetery, they're trying to get him moved from an Austrian Hero cemerery.

Fishu, the Finnish heroes fought for their own country against an invader, Nowotny did not. To draw a parallel to the Norwegians who fought for the Germans; many of them probably did heroic deeds in the battles they fought, but make no mistake, that does not make them Norwegian heroes, it makes them traitors and so they do not get any recognition for their sacrifice in Norway.

Not the strongest of arguments, given that the leader of the third reich, old Adolf himself, was an Austrian. So whilst arguably Nowotny was fighting for Germany, the Germany he fought for was run by an Austrian. The countries were allies in the previous war too and they speak the same language. After the Anschluss in 1938 the Austrian army was incorporated into the German Wehrmacht. So it's certainly a little closer than your Norwegian analogy might lead us to believe.

I personally have no idea what cause the guy was fighting for or whether he was heroic or not - but fighting for the "wrong" side does not IMO preclude heroism in war, just as fighting for the "right" side does not preclude the ability to commit war crimes (although this is sadly untrue as far as post-WWII trials go).

In that sense it's a bit like being a patriot - the fact that your country is awful or evil doesn't really figure - if you fight for it you're a patriot if you fight against it you're a traitor. Although if we use the more common cynical and realistic method - if you win you're a patriot and a hero, if you lose you're a traitor and a coward - then Nowotny should indeed be dug up and moved.

All in all a very grey area and a huge can of worms - for example should Bomber Harris, the architect of the Dresden raid be stripped of his honours too? Or the planners of the Tokyo fire bombings? Or the members of the Manhattan Project? All of these are arguably dreadful attrocities too, good intentions or not - and who's to say what Nowotny's intentions were? In the words of Jesus in South Park - "My son, I'm not touching that with a fifty foot pole." Let sleeping Austrians lie, I say.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
I can't quote this whole thread. You repeatedly stated that Nowotny was a hero. He was a Nazi. 2+2=4.

[/b]
You need to brush up on your logic. First...was he a nazi? Or was he an Austrian soldier in a war?

Anyway, to disprove your little 2+2=4 up there.
some A = B,
some A = C,
some A = B + C
that does not give C = B.

You are as thick as molasses, and just as slow.

[/b] Well we cant be all as smart as you mr 2+2=4...

You said Animal was wrong in Point #3. Without clarification beyond the single word you placed in response, it appears as though you believe Austria appreciates Nowotny as a hero for flying for the LuftWaffe in Nazi Germany's aggressive conquest to reunite Europe under the Nazi party and destroy all those who stand in their way, and are determined to be of lesser breeds by Hitler.

[/b]
See the other response regarding Austria and Germany and their relation in ww2.

Why? I don't understand why I must show you someone from WWII idolized by Germans today. I call you out on proving a WW2 Nazi is a hero in Germany today, and then you request I do it first, but it can be anyone hiding it under the guise of trying to find out what I mean?

[/b]
Well, simply because I cannot come up with one ww2 character from any nation that is idolized in Germany today...I really cant.
And if that is true, then it kinda disqualifies your argument.

"any person who has hoeroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal."

Use that definition to find a WW2 Nazi that is regarded as a hero today in Germany. The only thing he would be model or ideal in, would be that of Nazism. So, in the eyes of Nazis, he would be a hero, which I said way back in my first post.
-SW

LOL I dont agree with that definition of hero.

[Batz]

Sounds like the councilmans poppa got owned and now hes still sore about it. Did Nowotny ever get any lancs or nightbombers. IMO anyone who ever nailed one of them terrorbombers is a hero.

Exactly

[Dowding]

Sounds like the councilmans poppa got owned and now hes still sore about it. Did Nowotny ever get any lancs or nightbombers. IMO anyone who ever nailed one of them terrorbombers is a hero.

How about B17s or B29s?

You can answer that too if you like Batz.

[Lizard3]

Question:

If it turns out that 51% of the country is swayed by the spin into believing that Bush new the Iraq's were not in fact trying to buy uranium in Africa, does that make any of the U.S.'s soldiers who did brave deeds less of a hero, or deserve to be spit on maybe? Yank the dead ones out of Arlington and plant em in the back yard somewhere? Jessica? The hero reporter?

Is Sakai a hero? He did some pretty dam heroic stuff. Of course he did it for the evil nips who bombed Pearl. And actually, the Hero's of the Soviet are a good example also. Stalin was evil incarnate, and all those fellas did heroic stuff keeping communism free to attempt world domination. Are they still hero's? How about the Nam vets? They were just supporting corrupt evil puppet states? Hero's? Eh? Did they deserve to be spit on?

I guess history really is (re)written by the victors.

[Hortlund]

No, it's re-written by the PC-hysterics. (you know who you are, and you know that MT is your secret leader and Animal is the secret jester)

[Batz]

I answered that in the 10 other threads about terror bombers and dresden.

Its a bit off topic for this discussion. The specific targeting of civilians in order to create terror is/was wrong and those who planned it should have been/be held accountable.

I am not referring to "collateral damage" that may result from targeting specific military structures but the specific targeting of civilians with the purpose of killing as many of them as possible.

Dresden is the easiest example to point to. Even SHAEF considered that "terror bombing".

But even then theres a difference in that the b29s that dropped nukes in Japan ended the war and may have ultimately saved lives. The dehousing policy executed by Harris didnt end the war. It just killed a lot of women and children.

The fire bombing raids over Tokyo were/are as equally dreadful as Dresden.

[AKS\/\/ulfe]

This is pointless, he should remain where he is. It's a little late to remove his remains, but to me he isn't a hero.
-SW