190A vs SpitVB

[funkedup]

AFAIK Flettner tab is any movable tab on the trailing edge of a control surface.  
Balance tab is a specific type where the tab deflection is proportional and opposite to deflection of the control surface.
There are also trim tabs, control tabs, geared tabs, spring tabs, geared spring tabs, etc.  Unfortunately a lot of authors don't understand the distinctions between them so things get messed up in books.
This is US nomenclature though, might be different overseas.

[MANDOBLE]

GScholz, our D9 cant dive with a P51, but A8/A5 almost can.

[Ecke-109-]

Btw..

Are there any infos at which speed 190s could use their flaps?

Ecke

[Squire]

Just did a quick test , 10k at 360 mph for the 109G-2 and Spitfire IX, clean condition.

5Gs through 360 degree turn to the left, full wep, both a/c end up at @280 mph TAS. There is no great advantage to the Spitfire compared to other types, at least no more than you would expect.

Dive from 15k both ac at 370 mph. Spitfire IX at 45 deg dive, 6 sec to 400, 10 sec to 450, 13 sec to 500. 109G-2 same dive, 5 sec to 400, 9 sec to 450, 11 sec to 500.

I can probably put a 5 percent error in there for both tests, whatever.

There is a difference, sure, but small, and nowhere near enough for a claim that the Spitfire is somehow overmodelled?, not even close.

Just a bunch of heresay bunk... its quite amazing there doesnt seem to be one single LW ac that suffers from this terrible blight over overmodelling either, which sends the credibility of these types of claims re the Spitfire into the trash heap. .

[GScholz]

Originally posted by Squire
(1) Just did a quick test , 10k at 360 mph for the 109G-2 and Spitfire IX, clean condition.

(2) 5Gs through 360 degree turn to the left, full wep, both a/c end up at @280 mph TAS. There is no great advantage to the Spitfire compared to other types, at least no more than you would expect.

(3) Dive from 15k both ac at 370 mph. Spitfire IX at 45 deg dive, 6 sec to 400, 10 sec to 450, 13 sec to 500. 109G-2 same dive, 5 sec to 400, 9 sec to 450, 11 sec to 500.

I can probably put a 5 percent error in there for both tests, whatever.

There is a difference, sure, but small, and nowhere near enough for a claim that the Spitfire is somehow overmodelled?, not even close.

(4) Just a bunch of heresay bunk... its quite amazing there doesnt seem to be one single LW ac that suffers from this terrible blight over overmodelling either, which sends the credibility of these types of claims re the Spitfire into the trash heap. .

1. Like I said ... I stick with the 109 in AH, although the 190 was known as the better "Spitkiller".

2. The 109G is not a low wingloading fighter. Try matching E retention with a turning plane that match the Spits turning ability instead.

3. Why you persist in testing the Spit vs. 109 I dont know, it's the 190 we're discussing here. The 190 was a better diver than both the Spit and the 109, but not in AH it seems. I've read P-47 drivers complaining that Spits are catching them in dives ... which is of course completely wrong, the P-47 should be the best diver in the game AFAIK. Instead try matching the Spits diving performance with other turnfighters.

4. There is debate on the 190 A5's turn radius, it might be overmodelled. F4UDOA got quite upset when a 190A5 handed him his butt in a turnfight with his F4U. So you're wrong about LW planes not being considered overmoddeled by some.

[GScholz]

Originally posted by MANDOBLE
GScholz, our D9 cant dive with a P51, but A8/A5 almost can.

And I for one can't imagine why the D9 can't dive as well as the A. It was heavier, more streamlined and had more power???

[F4UDOA]

Here is another interesting note on the 190A5 or G depending on what version you believe was captured and tested by the Navy. The captured German flight card in the cockpit was restricted to 466MPH at 10,000FT and below.

Here is that page of the report.

[Squire]

Been down this road before. Exiting stage left. I cant wait for AH2, a whole new batch of Spitfire conspiracy theories will undoubtably follow, because Im sure it will be just as it is now.

[-ammo-]

Thx fellas.  This thread was a refreshing.  I havent' seen this old conspiracy (is it or not) in quite some time.  

Reminds of early times in AH..ahhh.

[hazed-]

and thanks ammo for being the first to suggest 'a conspiricy'. As usual you try to make everyone with any concern about AH behaviour that in any way involves the 190 to be accusing HTC of doing it all on purpose to annoy LW flyers.

Well as usual the thread goes the way you intend it. Turns into a personal slanging match. we can get as pissed off with your reaction as you seem to be if you read anyone questioning the 190.

Consider this: Had mandoble said this exact same thing only substituting the P47 or P38 and described the same thing you would have probably given him your straightforward opinion. You would maybe go try what he says and either agree or disagree.
Since he said 190 though the immidiate reaction is the same old sh*t. You say he whining etc and a few join in and fill the thread with nonsense.

AMMO I want you to answer a few things for me please.

1) do you believe all aircraft to be modelled perfectly as they are now in AH?.
2) Do you feel 190 flyers have less of a right to question the things they experience in the game, and does this includes anyone who flies the 190?
3) Did you read the paper posted above about the 190vs F4u?
or did you ignore it? did you read any of the thread with an open mind is what im getting at.

for once dont just think 'whiner with no basis in truth' and try to consider it as you would someone like frenchy saying the P47 has a weird querk.You wouldnt jump on frenchy's back for asking it would you? You'd at least read it and consider it.

Well i read mandobles and i pointed out that test was a 190A-3 not an A-5 , I gave the weight difference as a guide and i hoped someone with better math than me might be able to give us some figures to show what we should see. But no, nothing like that, just the old crap about us claiming conspiricy again. I dont think theres a conspiricy at all but i do think people make a concerted effort to piss off the people who ask about them in here. Thats not HTC but it seems to make the threads get so personal that it gets ignored by any sane games player or developer alike.

choose to ignore evryone who flies them if you wish but i feel when people who regularly fly certain types notice discrepencies they are a credible source of info. Ammo do you truelly believe mandoble is just making this all up to get the aircraft better? so he can get more kills? shhesh we've been here years! we arent bothered about winning or losing fights , its just we want to see what we read about  and want ACCURACY. most are fans of AH.Why would we bother for this long?

I get fed up, even in this very thread ive just read something ELSE which pissed me off, I had noticed whilst flying the 190 that i tend to black out an awful lot if i ever tried to sustain those high g turns for too long. Never seemed to happen when i flew other planes, I have often wondered just how i can go about finding out how they really were. The problem was i read in a book the 190 used a sloped position which impressed the RAF types for its ability to help the pilot tollerate more G. Again now in that posted doc I read about the same thing, this time written by the USA test pilots.

In AH i have often been lost by a hard manouvering P51B at blackout. Its almost impossible to see the p51 to follow his moves. He gets some G effect but the D-9 goes totally black.

So now how do i do anything about it? It's just a feeling that I seem to black out more but it could be a correct assumption.Am i a whiner if i question it? Isnt it fair that i should be able to say 'why do i seem to black out more in my 190d-9 in AH when ive read they used the sloping seat which afforded a greater tollerance of G force's ill affects (much the same as modern fighters and stunt planes do now)'.

Its a reasonable question but because it says 190 and not P47 or P38 immediately its a whine.I could be WAAYYY off the mark and completely wrong in my assumptions but I need to read where i got it all wrong before i accept it.

I merely wish to know if how it is now is right.its not whining.Ammo if you posted info that proved how it is in AH is spot on it would be different, but you dont , you just have a go at anyone in here whos interested in the 190.it sucks.

I suspect it is just a 'feeling' that i may have wrong but theres no law saying you cant ask questions. If you dont agree ammo why not show us how we are wrong instead of starting this conspiricy twaddle again>?

[minus]

Punt .   for hazed,

btw giving each month my 14 euro to HTC and even not bother log in AH anymore,

[Urchin]

Because this way he gets to see some "Luftwhiner" get mad and start tossing insults back, and then we get to see some bannings.  Good time can be had by all.

[eddiek]

But in regards to the blacking out, there was a P-47/Fw-190 test posted here several times, and it mentioned the Fw pilot kept blacking out or graying out in the high G turns.  So, yes, there is mention at least in one test of 190 pilots blacking out.

As far as the "conspiracy" talk, I don't think the LW fans really believe there is one, but..........from the perspective of others, when you look in the "Aircraft/Vehicles" forum and see thread after thread after thread with LW planes in the title, and you read them and see nothing but complaints or "notes" on how those planes "should be" as compared to AH, well, you do tend to develop an attitude about the thread author and yes, sometimes it does appear that they are alleging that HTC purposely models the LW planes' performance deficiently.
Are all  the planes in AH modelled correctly?  Who knows?  I wasn't even born yet when the planes in here were built and flying combat.  I suspect that neither were 95% of the players in the game.  
Do Allied planes fans complain?  Sure they do.  Are they as voracious and aggressive with their complaints as the LW types?  In my opinion, no.  
From what I have seen, whenever a LW plane complaint thread starts, it starts out civil, then if HTC doesn't respond instantly, the author or another LW fan starts in with sarcastic comments, i.e. "it does no good to post this, they won't listen anyway."  Then within a couple hours, we get the replies from other LW fans with " " smilies in them, and from there it generally progresses into a flame war.
HiTech himself commented on the topic about LW threads some time back.  Search it out, read it, get it straight from him.  That thread tells a lot about how he regards a thread just from the syntax and wording from the players.  
Simply put, if ya got a complaint, and don't want a flame war, email HTC directly.  You may not get a reply, but you will have handled your complaint in a more mature manner than airing it out here and starting yet another flamefest.


BTW, if you reread the whole thread, you will see that ammo was NOT the first to mention "conspiracy".  Squire did that in the reply above ammo's.  Maybe you owe ammo an apology for your lengthy diatribe and should address your comments to Squire instead?

[Kweassa]

I have thought the same.

 The fury should be directed at Squire, hazed, not ammo.

 Sure, it's got a lil' sarcastic tone, but as the post stands, the sarcasm could be against Squire, or the 'Lufties', or even both.

 I don't think it's that serious a thing to get angry over... take a deep breath, hazed!

[Urchin]

 I'll bite, I suppose.  

Speaking as a "Luftwhiner" that has been playing for two years and seen the same old issues brought up time and time again with no response other than "quit whining" from other players and from HT himself, I would think it would be completely obvious why us "Luftwhiners" are aggravated beyond belief.  As a group, we fly the planes with the most ineffective guns out of any in the game.  If anyone wonders why the guns are so amazingly poor, they get called a whiner and dismissed.  We fly planes that as a general rule can't be considered the "top tier" of planes.  As a consequence of choosing to fly a plane for a reason other than that it is the best plane available, we tend to be more knowledgable about our plane of choice and how it performed in the "real world".  Of course, we don't know a thing when it comes to the true experts like, well, I'm sure you guys can fill in your own list of names here, I don't need to do that.

In short, if anyone even THINKS they MIGHT have an issue with anything about a german plane, it is automatically a whine.  It isn't a concern, it isn't an attempt to reconcile a source of information about real life performance vs in game performance, it is just a whine.  So yea, after months and years of saying, "Gee, why does the 109/190 do XXX or not do XXX" and getting replies like "J00 Sux0rs, Luftwh1n3r!", I think it'd be completely understandable if one became considerably less civil.  Of course, when one side becomes to uncivil (and I'll leave it to you to figure out which side that is) the powers than be step in and start banning, etc.  Generally performing crowd control.  

The really amusing thing, for me personally, is seeing two years of "There is NOTHING wrong with ANY plane in this WHOLE GAME!  They are ALL modelled 100% CORRECTLY!, Now quit whining because you got killed/some other inane comment"....  and then seeing stuff like this

Now....  if it was modelled absolutely correctly before...  then whats the point?  I actually asked someone this a while back. I said "Hey XXXX.. if you guys already HAVE the flight models right.. then why are you changing them?"  "We are making them MORE right".  Amusing, to me anyway.