109G10 beats P51 near the deck

[Rutilant]

Originally posted by Bluedog
Problem is, A8s just make me fly like a complete tool



So Grun, comparing two late war monsters that represent the pinnacle of their kind in this game is idiotic?
Forgive my idiocy, but I'm standin' by my original statement.
G10s are a dweeb ride, just like LA7s are, any fool can get one to do allright in the MA.
Of course, this is all 'IMHO', YMMV, each to their own an' all that.
I'll stick with my G6/R6 thanks, I enjoy it.

So what exactly does it have goin for it besides iit's speed (on WEP) and climbrate(on WEP)? How is it even comparable to the la7?

[Kweassa]

Incidentally, how really is the turn rate comparable between the late Bf109s(Bf109G-10/K-4) and the P-51B/D?

 I notice a difference between the Bf109G-2, G-6 and the G-10 in turn capabilities.. while the differences between G-2 and G-6 is understandable, since same wing but heavier plane in the G-6.. but what about the G-2 and the G-10? Do they have the same wings? Isn't the power to weight ratio much stronger in the G-10, which would account for other factors inhibiting its turn capability?

 What about the Bf109G-10 and the P-51D we have in AH? They are probably equal in many aspects.. but isn't both the weight and wingloading, heavier and larger on the part of the P-51D? Also, the power loading seems to favor the G-10, too, no?

 If flaps manage to make such a large difference that it would allow the P-51D to outturn a G-10 in a sustained turn fight, how is it so? Would it be the ability to deploy 'combat flaps' that make such a difference, so the P-51 would gain an initial advantage?

 Also on 'handling' issues, I thought the leading edge slats are specifically designed to cope with on-the-verge-of-stall issues with the 109.

 ..

 All in all, I'm just curious.

 If a P-51D with flaps would out-turn a G-10 with also 1~2 notch of flaps, wouldn't that mean the P-51 is a more stable plane in sustained turn fights, when the G-10 has a more powerful engine, WEP system, lighter weight, smaller wingloading?

 Wouldn't that mean the flaps are producing lift which is powerful enough to overcome the fully deployed drag it is causing for prolonged period of time?

 I can't see a reason why the P-51D would be able to out-turn a G-10.. can anyone clarify this issue?

[Blue Mako]

In a turn fight with a good G10 pilot I have never been able to outturn one with a D pony.

Of course, I've outturned plenty of newbies in G10s with the D pony.

[Urchin]

The only way I could see a 109G-10 out turning a P-51D in a sustained one circle fight is if the P-51 managed to get down to around 100 mph or so.. it would have a tiny little circle but it would take forever to get around it.

[Steve]

I have no trouble out turning G10's in the pony. Kweassa, I don't know a thing about wing loading and engine power to be honest so I can't explain it intelligently.  I do know that I out-turn G10's in my pony.

[Kweassa]

Hmm..  rgr that, Steve.

 so which is it?

 Would a real life P-51Ds outturn real life Bf109G-10/K-4?

 Would a AH P-51D outturn an AH Bf109G-10?

 It'd be great to hear from some of the aircraft experts out here.

 ..

 One interesting thing to note: in the "Kingcat's AH Data series", which includes the roll rate, accel rate, climb rate charts and etc, which some of you might know by now, there's also a turn rate comparison.

 This comparison was done by using the AH internal 'stall limiter' system to minimize human errors - so, technically it's not a maximum turn rate figure. It's rather a turn rate comparison between planes, which stick deflection is set to the maximum limit up to the point before stall.

 Tested height was initially 500ft with plus/minus 100ft margin. 25% fuel load with fuel burn off, 'normal' armament settings(ie. no gondolas in case of 109s, no 30mm in case of 190A-8 and etc.. US planes are tested with the 'overloaded' ammo option which people use as standard in AH)

 After the aircraft reaches the standard height, speed set for the test, the plane went into a max stick pull with stall limiter on, for 3 full 360d turns - which would bring out the results on turn rate, but not necessary turn radius.

 The time for the 3full turns, is as suggested in the link:

 Kingcat's Turn Rate Comparison

 According to the tests, the P-51D 66 seconds on Mil, 63.5 on WEP. The Bf109G-10 does 60 seconds on Mil, 56 seconds with WEP...

 Another interesting stat is the Bf109E-4 and the F-4 - two planes are almost identical.. which would probably mean the higher power on the F-4 accounted for overall same turn rate, while the radius, might be different.

 I guess it'd come to what kind of radius a P-51D or a G-10 can pull with flaps, and how well a pilot would manage the plane, in this case..

[Blue Mako]

A quick look at E-M Diagrams for each aircraft will show the answer easily.  I'm trying to find what I did with Badboys EM diagrams, I remember having some for the pony and 109.

If anyone has them, please post em here.  It'll be nice to have some facts instead of just gut feelings...

Edited to add:

P51D Data (as tested by Leon "Badboy" Smith) - Sea Level, Mil power, 25% fuel, clean.

Corner velocity = 260 mph
Turn rate at corner velocity = 28.6 dps
Best sustained turn velocity = 173 mph
Turn rate at bstv = 17.9 dps
Turn radius at bstv = 815 ft

If someone has Bf109G10 data, please post it.

[Steve]

Mako, ya may as well call me a a liar.  fact: My K/d vs G10's is over 10/1

Fact:  part of this is because I can out turn them in a pony.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Kweassa

 One interesting thing to note: in the "Kingcat's AH Data series", which includes the roll rate, accel rate, climb rate charts and etc, which some of you might know by now, there's also a turn rate comparison.

 This comparison was done by using the AH internal 'stall limiter' system to minimize human errors - so, technically it's not a maximum turn rate figure. It's rather a turn rate comparison between planes, which stick deflection is set to the maximum limit up to the point before stall.

 Tested height was initially 500ft with plus/minus 100ft margin. 25% fuel load with fuel burn off, 'normal' armament settings(ie. no gondolas in case of 109s, no 30mm in case of 190A-8 and etc.. US planes are tested with the 'overloaded' ammo option which people use as standard in AH)

 After the aircraft reaches the standard height, speed set for the test, the plane went into a max stick pull with stall limiter on, for 3 full 360d turns - which would bring out the results on turn rate, but not necessary turn radius.

My own testing, done without stall limiter on provides much different results. I used 3 Gs as my control. I would roll into a turn at 250 mph, pull 3 Gs on the G-meter and sustain it as long as possible.

You can also calculate (reliably) turn radius (as an index) if you know the wing loading and maximum coefficient of lift.

For example, the Hurricane IIC cannot match the FM-2 in a sustained turn. This was affirmed by flying against a Hurri piloted by Grunherz. We entered a lefthand lufberry about 180 degrees apart. I was able to pull lead for a shot in less than 3 turns in the FM-2 (I had about 75% fuel). Likewise, I found that the A6M5 needed better than 4 turns just to gain 1/4 turn on the FM-2.

Kingcat's numbers for the La-7 compared to the the F6F-5 are misleading. My experience is that the Hellcat will fly circles around the Lavochkin in a low-speed turning fight.

Wing loading for the La-7, based up full internal load, is 39.6 lbs/sq ft. The F6F-5 comes in at 36.5 lbs/sq ft. Let's toss the P-51D in here too at 40.7 lbs/sq ft.

When we look at lift coefficient, the F6F-5 has the best, we find the F6F-5 at 2.27, the La-7 at 1.92 and the P-51D at 1.89. So, we can determine the following index for each fighter.

F6F-5: 16.08
La-7: 20.73
P-51D: 21.53

If we were to use flaps to aid turning, the Mustang gets the greatest benefit due to the ability to begin flap deployment at very high speed (400 mph). The Hellcat can begin deploying flaps at 250 mph. Bringing up the rear is the La-7 with flap deployment speeds just below 200 mph.

Whether flaps are used or not, the F6F-5 is the better turner by a considerable margin with a turn radius just 77% of the La-7 and 75% of the P-51D. Differences between the P-51D and La-7 are such that a notch or two of flaps in the P-51D should equalize turn radius.

Naturally, these numbers are based upon real world data, not the AH flight models. However, HTC used the same data in most if not all instances.

My regards,

Widewing

[Kweassa]

Understood, Widewing.

 Kingcat's numbers, like suggested, should not be a real standard on judging an outcome of a turn fight. Rather, it is a limited test on pure capabilities when equal amount of stick pull is put into a plane, starting from a set speed. Also, it does not note anything on turn radiuses nor the dynamic human judgements involving turn fights.

 So I guess when it comes to the point where flaps come out, throttle moves about and rudders go kicking, that's the moment when results become unpredictable at best.

 ..

ps) How about the 109G-10 and the 51D? Any data on the real life comparisons in turn rate/radius of those two planes?

[MANDOBLE]

Kweassa, how were done Kingcat's tests? Are these AH data, real world data, or what? I find too many discrepancies and too many generalizations.

[Kweassa]

Mand, read first post of second page of this thread. In that thread, I wrote down the test conditions. It is the data of AH planes.

[Urchin]

Well, me and Bigmax kinda did a "test" in the DA.  We merged head-on at 6k and both went into a left-hand turn.  The results surprised me at least, the 109G-10 beat the P-51D around in the first circle, and was able to pull enough lead for a shot by the second circle (or third at the outside).  

Apparently the G-10 can out-turn the P-51D in a 1 circle fight.  Bigmax was in the 109, he said his speed never dropped below about 200 mph (still to fast to get any flaps out), and I kept the P-51 at 180-200 mph as well.

[Sable]

Originally posted by Urchin
Well, me and Bigmax kinda did a "test" in the DA.  We merged head-on at 6k and both went into a left-hand turn.  The results surprised me at least, the 109G-10 beat the P-51D around in the first circle, and was able to pull enough lead for a shot by the second circle (or third at the outside).  

Apparently the G-10 can out-turn the P-51D in a 1 circle fight.  Bigmax was in the 109, he said his speed never dropped below about 200 mph (still to fast to get any flaps out), and I kept the P-51 at 180-200 mph as well.

Wouldn't that be a two circle fight if you both turned left?

[WldThing]

Originally posted by Urchin
Well, me and Bigmax kinda did a "test" in the DA.  We merged head-on at 6k and both went into a left-hand turn.  The results surprised me at least, the 109G-10 beat the P-51D around in the first circle, and was able to pull enough lead for a shot by the second circle (or third at the outside).  

Apparently the G-10 can out-turn the P-51D in a 1 circle fight.  Bigmax was in the 109, he said his speed never dropped below about 200 mph (still to fast to get any flaps out), and I kept the P-51 at 180-200 mph as well.

Ya i was there as a witness