Author Topic: Alabamas Judge Roy Moore  (Read 3468 times)

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2003, 12:03:31 PM »
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He violated the "establishment" clause of the 1st amendment…


Ah, now we come to the crux of the problem, i.e.   Article I reads:

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Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


This comes down to states’ rights and the usurping of power by the judiciary.  Karnak argues above that:

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The United States Supreme Court has long ruled that the Bill of Rights applies to the States as well as the Federal Government.


While this article was aimed squarely and explicitly at the federal government, i.e. the US Congress, it has indeed been interpreted to apply to all levels of government.  It was meant to limit the power of the federal government (and through application, to local and state governments) by preventing them from making laws that either establishes a government religion, or to make laws that deny individuals the right to practice the religion of their choice.  Neither of those has occurred, at the local, state or federal level.  What has occurred is that the judiciary branch of the federal government has made law, rather than interpret it.  They have further usurped the state’s right to determine on their own the rightness or wrongness of Judge Moore’s actions.  The fact that our currency and our oaths of office include the word “God”, as well as our founding documents (“all men are endowed by their creator”), clearly points to the judiciary as fundamentally making something a crime in this instance that is not under parallel circumstances.  To the best of my knowledge, there is no federal or state law that says the word “God” cannot appear on government property (state of federal).  Indeed federal regulation stipulates that the words “In God we trust” appear on our currency.

MT states,
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he may have arguably violated the "free exercise" clause through the possible intimidation of religious practices of those who are not Christian.


It appears your saying that making someone uncomfortable when walking into this building is the same as preventing (by passing of laws) that person from exercising their right to religious freedom.  This is a week argument at best, IMO.

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To say this is a "stretch" is to call Mt Everest a hill.


dago


Why?  I’m talking about décor in general, not this specific item.  If there were some written rule or regulation Judge Moore violated, he would have been cited for that; he has not.  Instead, he was sued by private citizens for “infringing” on their rights by putting an item they objected to on public display.  Are you saying that if he wanted to put a painting on the wall, or a vase of flowers next to the door, that he didn’t have the authority within the courthouse to do so?  If so, I believe you’re wrong.

Respectfully,
Sabre
"The urge to save humanity almost always masks a desire to rule it."

Offline Wanker

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« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2003, 12:07:39 PM »
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some ppl have to much time on their hands ...



Had Judge Moore's name been Muhammed, and the carved monument in question been the laws of the Koran, can you imagine how many christians would have "Too much time on their hands" at this moment? ;)


Christians are hypocrites. They are only supporting this monument because it supports their particular religion, whereas the people supporting the separation between church and state would've opposed any religious monument from any religion.

Offline Dago

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« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2003, 12:23:15 PM »
banana, I couldn't agree more.
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline Trell

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« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2003, 12:41:16 PM »
I completely disagree.

as long as the government is not mandating or even preferring people to tell there religious beliefs.
i have no problem with it.
I don't care if they have the Koran, bible  or even a dancing Buddha there. it shows to me that they are human.
as long as they base there desision on the law, and not there faith in god.

he should be  able to keep the commandments up

people get worked up over everything.

Offline Dead Man Flying

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« Reply #49 on: August 22, 2003, 12:52:02 PM »
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Originally posted by LoneStarBuckeye
Wow!  Now that I see the whole thing there in black and white, it is perfectly obvious that displaying the Ten Commandments in a Federal Courthouse violates the prohibition against Congress making laws respecting the establishment of religion.  Silly me.


Unfortunately, the United States Supreme Court disagrees with your assessment.  See, for example, Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1 (1947).  Justice Black wrote that, "Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church.  Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another."  He continues: "[The First Amendment] requires the state to be a neutral in its relations with groups of religious believers and non-believers."

Erecting a 2.5 ton monument to a religious document, at the exclusion of all other religions, violates this definition of government's responsibilities under the First Amendment.  Moore clearly was not creating a religious marketplace of ideas in his courthouse.

See also Justice Black's opinion in Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421 (1962).  In it he concludes that when "the power, prestige and financial support of government is placed behind a particular religious belief, the indirect coercive pressure upon religious minorities to conform to the prevailing officially approved religion is plain."  

Justice Clark refines this view more in Abington School District v. Schempp, 375 U.S. 203 (1963).  He contends that "to withstand the strictures of the Establishment Clause there must be a secular legislative purpose and a primary effect that neither advances nor inhibits religion."  Can you honestly argue that Moore's primary purpose in displaying the monument was secular?  His own words don't suggest so.

From this comes the famous "Lemon Test" that arises out of Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602 (1971).  Chief Justice Burger identifies three "main evils" against which the Establishment Clause serves to protect:  "sponsorship, financial support, and active involvement of the sovereign in religious activity."  Three tests measure compliance with the Establishment Clause.  First, "a statute must have a secular legislative purpose."  Next, "its principle or primary effect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion."  And finally, "the statute must not foster 'an excessive government entanglement with religion.'"

The Lemon Test has undergone modification over time, particularly in the 1990s, but its main tenet still remains: that government must act in a neutral manner toward religion, neither promoting nor attacking any religion through its laws and actions.  Thus legislatures may engage in an optional morning prayer with non-denominational speakers or rotating denominations.  And, as well, government representatives such as Judge Moore may not publicly display, at taxpayer expense and on taxpayer-funded property, a monument that clearly favors one religion over another.  If he desires to put the monument in his private quarters, then that's well within his rights.  I hope he has room to fit it.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Offline Nath[BDP]

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« Reply #50 on: August 22, 2003, 01:01:00 PM »
Todd is a superstar.
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vocalist of the year


Offline loser

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« Reply #51 on: August 22, 2003, 01:03:11 PM »
Damn Dead Man.  

No one can argue with this man's post.

Dead Man, you have your ducks in an extremely straight row.

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #52 on: August 22, 2003, 01:18:39 PM »
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Originally posted by banana
Had Judge Moore's name been Muhammed, and the carved monument in question been the laws of the Koran, can you imagine how many christians would have "Too much time on their hands" at this moment? ;)


Christians are hypocrites. They are only supporting this monument because it supports their particular religion, whereas the people supporting the separation between church and state would've opposed any religious monument from any religion.


if this counrty was founded on those beliefs, Islam, I do not think we'd have a problem with it as the majority would not be christian nor would our laws be based on the 10 commandments
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Offline Puke

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« Reply #53 on: August 22, 2003, 01:38:39 PM »
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just wondering how many of the crowd who wants to see this display go are in favor of removing the practice of one swearing on a bible or to God in any court?

If you do not believe, then swearing on the Bible is akin to swearing on the book of Peter Cottontail or the Tooth Fairy or Leprachauns.  "So help me Tooth Fairy."

People, you have churches...keep your church stuff there!

Offline Dago

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« Reply #54 on: August 22, 2003, 01:40:17 PM »
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f this counrty was founded on those beliefs, Islam, I do not think we'd have a problem with it as the majority would not be christian nor would our laws be based on the 10 commandments


Interesting that some declare our country to have been founded on Christianity, when you won't find the word "God", nor "Christian" in any form in the Constitution or Bill of Rights.

I found this an interesting read:

Now it is my turn: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Numerous newspaper articles, magazine reports, and books, as well as a multitude of radio and TV shows, repeat the First Amendment's religion clauses and then distort what those clauses say with a repeated assertion that the Establishment Clause refers only to a national religion, a state church, or a single denomination. I am going to destroy that narrow definition.

I am hereby challenging (1) the underinformed newspersons and commentators who ignore Thomas Jefferson and James Madison as if those two did not know about what they were talking and (2) the undereducated history revisionists who reword the Establishment Clause to suit themselves and who trash the members of the First Congress who drafted and approved the religion clauses as if they were not capable of writing and saying what they meant.

In 1787 (two years before the First Amendment was drafted), the Founding Fathers perfectly expressed the principle of separation between religion and government in clearly stated terms: "No religious Test shall ever be required as a qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States" (Constitution, Art. 6., Sec. 3.).

Under the United States every citizen has a right to hold public office regardless of religious affiliation or persuasion. It does not make any difference if that person is Buddhist, Jewish,
Muslim, Hindu, Christian, or atheist; there will be "no religious Test." That is the exact wording as drafted by the Founders and approved by the states. How much more specifically could the Constitution have stated the position of the American people in regard to separation between religion and government?

Yet, in 1787, that strong constitutional statement was not enough to satisfy everyone. The persons who promoted adoption of the Constitution had to promise a further guarantee related to separation between religion and government would be added to the Constitution as a part of a Bill of Rights.

In 1789 a six member joint Senate-House conference committee was given responsibility for finalizing amendments. Congressman Madison was a cochairman of that committee. Madison, in September of 1789, reported to the House an agreement as to the wording of the religion clauses of the First Amendment. The wording was accepted by the Senate on September 25, 1789, and ratified by the states on December 15, 1791 (Bill of Rights Day).

As originally drafted, the First Amendment applied only to Congress. Congress was given no authority to establish religion of any kind. It was not an oversight by the Founding Fathers who wrote or by the Americans who approved the Constitution that the words "God," "Christianity," "christian principles," and "judeo-christian heritage" are not in the Constitution. In 1797 there was no misunderstanding when President John Adams signed a treaty --read and ratified by the U.S. Senate (in the English language)-- with Tripoli which in Article 11 declares: "The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion" (Hunter Miller, ed., Treaties and other International Acts of the United States of America, 2:365).

On January 1, 1802, President Thomas Jefferson deliberately defined the religion clauses, in his letter to the Danbury Baptist Association, by asserting that "the legitimate powers of
government reach actions only, & not opinions . . . thus building a wall of separation between Church & State" (Library of Congress, LC 20593-20594).

In 1811 President and Founder James Madison specifically applied the meaning of the Establishment Clause as he vetoed two bills passed by Congress. On February 21 Madison vetoed a bill that would have involved, in violation of the Establishment Clause, the government in matters related to an Episcopal church in Alexandria because "governments are limited by the essential distinction between civil and religious functions"; and, on February 28 Madison vetoed another bill which, in violation of the Establishment Clause, would have donated a parcel of land to a Baptist church in Mississippi Territory because the bill "comprises a principle and precedent for the appropriation of funds of the United States for the use and support of
religious societies" (James D. Richardson, Compilation of the Messages and Papers of the Presidents, 1:489-490).

Nevertheless, the word "national" was specifically rejected by the 1789 conference committee and obviously does not appear in the Establishment Clause. Thus, in one sentence I will destroy the "national" religion distortion: common sense and proper English require the word "thereof" in the Free Exercise Clause refer to and mean the same thing as the Establishment Clause! "Congress shall make no law . . . prohibiting the free exercise" of a governmentally established national religion, a state church, or a single denomination? Give me a break. The word "religion" means religion--the broad definition--in both clauses.

In other words, how do I define what "religion" means in the Establishment Clause? Very simply, it means exactly whatever "thereof" means in the Free Exercise Clause and whatever "religious" means as used by the Founding Fathers in Article 6., Section 3., of the Constitution. The words of the Constitution are not in conflict.

To paraphrase unitarian John Adams in his rejection of trinitarianism: Howl, snarl, bite, you flaming liberal revisionists who change the words of the Constitution to fit your misguided
agenda. You say I am in error, but I reply you are no conservative strict constructionist--and there you lose (restated from The Works of John Adams, 10:67, 1813).

Readers who wish to study the issue should read the classics in the field of religion and government: James Madison's 1785 "Memorial and Remonstrance," Thomas Jefferson's 1786 "Virginia Statute of Religious Liberty," H. J. Eckenrode's Separation of Church and State in Virginia (1910), Leo Pfeffer's Church, State, and Freedom (1967), and Leonard W. Levy's The Establishment Clause (1986).

Copyright 1996 Gene Garman


Source: http://www.sunnetworks.net/~ggarman/clause.html
« Last Edit: August 22, 2003, 01:42:37 PM by Dago »
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Offline hblair

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« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2003, 01:52:58 PM »
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Thus legislatures may engage in an optional morning prayer with non-denominational speakers or rotating denominations.  And, as well, government representatives such as Judge Moore may not publicly display, at taxpayer expense and on taxpayer-funded property, a monument that clearly favors one religion over another.  If he desires to put the monument in his private quarters, then that's well within his rights.  I hope he has room to fit it.

-- Todd/Leviathn


Denominations of christianity?

A cover-all-religion prayer isn't possible seeings how they have different gods. :)

The monument was financed with private money.

Sorry todd :D

Offline fd ski

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« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2003, 01:58:16 PM »
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Originally posted by hblair

The monument was financed with private money.

Sorry todd :D


In a building financed and used by public.

Sorry hblair
:D

Offline LoneStarBuckeye

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« Reply #57 on: August 22, 2003, 02:02:30 PM »
DMF:

I am familiar with First Amendment jurisprudence, including the cases that you cited.  (Your post contained a very well-written synopsis, by the way.)  That does not mean that I agree with it or that I believe that it embodies a legitimate "interpretation" of the First Amendment.  (Of course, I recognize that it is the law, notwithstanding my dissent.)  The point is that the Supreme Court's "construction" of the First Amendment finds scant, if any, support in the plain text of the Amendment or in the intent of those who drafted it.  The object of quoting the language of the Amendment in its entirety was to make that disconnect clear.    

If the meaning of the Constitution is not tied to its text, the document can be twisted whichever way is required to suit the purposes of the federal judiciary.  Although I think the Supreme Court's perversion of the First Amendment is severe, it probably is not its most glaring such error.  For example, when it served its purposes, the Court constucted from whole cloth the notions of "right of privacy" and "substantive due process."  

The bottom line is that when we (read: 5 of 9 unelected, life-tenured Justices) uncouple the legal effect of the Constitution from the plain meaning of its text, we head towards the slipperiest of slopes.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2003, 02:12:30 PM by LoneStarBuckeye »

Offline slimm50

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« Reply #58 on: August 22, 2003, 02:04:27 PM »
Very interesting thread. Who would've thought there were so many well-read and informed among the rude, bellicose, belligerent horde that seem to rule channel 1 on any given night in Aces High.

There's hope, yet.

Offline crowMAW

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« Reply #59 on: August 22, 2003, 02:20:04 PM »
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Originally posted by rc51
Why do people fear christianity?
Afraid there may be a power greater than you and your little ego's just can't handle it
:D :D

Actually I don't fear Christianity at all...it is a wonderful fairy tale.

However, I do fear those followers of Christianity who would attempt to persuade me against my wishes that I should change my mind and submit to their god concept.  And I fear the way in which they go about doing this, and I especially fear their use of government to try and evangelize to me and lets be real...the man's intent was not to show the historocity of the Commandments...it is to evangelize.  I fear their use of goverment to evangelize because I know that is the most dangerous slippery slope...one that leads to an eventual theocracy of they type that exists in Iran and existed in Afghanistan.  I completely fail to understand how any American who believes in the Constitution of the United States and freedom of religion could ever support these Christian Taliban.