Author Topic: Alabamas Judge Roy Moore  (Read 3787 times)

Offline AKIron

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Alabamas Judge Roy Moore
« Reply #75 on: August 22, 2003, 04:12:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by crowMAW
I find that no less disgusting and morally reprehensible as the actions of the Taliban.


Either you have no idea how the Taliban operated in Afghanistan or you have no experience relating to fundamental Christians. How can you compare oppressing women to the point of public execution for bad cooking to denying an adolescent daughter cosmetics? Please elaborate.
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Offline Lizard3

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« Reply #76 on: August 22, 2003, 04:20:58 PM »
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Originally posted by LoneStarBuckeye
That's a bit over-the-top, don't you think?  Even if one accepts your reasoning, that's akin to calling Jessie Jackson Adolph Hitler.


Actually, he's closer to Stalin. He uses fear and intimidation to enrich himself and his cronies, while under the guise of helping the black man.  Oh, thats another thread, but you brought it up.

Offline Silat

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« Reply #77 on: August 22, 2003, 04:44:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Unfortunately, the United States Supreme Court disagrees with your assessment.  
-- Todd/Leviathn



I taught +Dead everything he knows:}
+Silat
"The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them." — Maya Angelou
"Conservatism offers no redress for the present, and makes no preparation for the future." B. Disraeli
"All that serves labor serves the nation. All that harms labor is treason."

Offline LoneStarBuckeye

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« Reply #78 on: August 22, 2003, 04:46:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by crowMAW
Beyond all the sophistry and justifications, the underlying reason for xians to refuse to allow the religious neutrality of our government is for the purpose of evangelizing and ultimately to impose their moralistic values.  I find that no less disgusting and morally reprehensible as the actions of the Taliban.
No true Christian (What's up with "xian" anyway?  Are you trying to be offensive?) would ever seek to impose his or her "moralistic values" on anyone.  Didn't Jesus wash the feet of the prostitute by the well?  

Having said that, realize that we cannot exist in a moral vaccuum.  The morals--i.e., the rules, laws, etc.--by which we govern ourselves and restrain our behavior have to come from somewhere.  The alternative is anarchy.  

Don't you think that those who seek to obliterate all traces of our Judeo-Christian heritage and its attendant concept of morality have their own "moralistic values" that they seek to impose?  You may think that that's alright, because, you figure, those values don't derive from religion.   Well, if that thought comforts you, fine.  But I've met few Christians as religious and militant about their beliefs as many on the political left are about theirs.  In my experience, "believers" in Darwinism, Marxism, Radical Environmentalism, Radical Feminism, PC"ism", etc. have much more faith and are much more fervent than your average Methodist.

Offline Silat

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« Reply #79 on: August 22, 2003, 04:49:04 PM »
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Originally posted by LoneStarBuckeye
DMF:

."  

The bottom line is that when we (read: 5 of 9 unelected, life-tenured Justices) uncouple the legal effect of the Constitution from the plain meaning of its text, we head towards the slipperiest of slopes.



Actually the bottom line is that the document is a living thing. It was written in a way that does allow for interpretation.
+Silat
"The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them." — Maya Angelou
"Conservatism offers no redress for the present, and makes no preparation for the future." B. Disraeli
"All that serves labor serves the nation. All that harms labor is treason."

Offline crowMAW

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« Reply #80 on: August 22, 2003, 04:53:07 PM »
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Originally posted by AKIron
Either you have no idea how the Taliban operated in Afghanistan or you have no experience relating to fundamental Christians. How can you compare oppressing women to the point of public execution for bad cooking to denying an adolescent daughter cosmetics? Please elaborate.

Actually I have a great deal of experience with fundies.  I live in the Bible belt and have dealt with them nearly all my life both personally and professionally (including the boss who asked me on my first day if I was xian--I was able to give an inconclusive and vague answer--and who then spent the rest of my time at that job making my life hell after she learned several months later that I was not...btw, that was a government job).  My best friend became a JW several years ago and we have had a standing weekly meeting to talk apologetics since he "came out" (I subject myself to this willingly as we both enjoy the debate).  I also am a regular on CARM.org and have been jousting with xians for several years there.

As far as understanding the capability that fundies have--any fundies, xian or otherwise--of committing atrocities, I need only look at history to see that fundamentalism leads to intolerance and intolerance leads to violence against those who do not share the same religious views.  Do you really want me to list the atrocities carried out by Christians that equal those of the Taliban?  Do you really believe that a theocratic US governed by fundies would be anymore enlightened?  If so, you have not had enough experience with the intolerance of fundamentalists that I have had.

Offline LoneStarBuckeye

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« Reply #81 on: August 22, 2003, 05:02:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Silat
Actually the bottom line is that the document is a living thing. It was written in a way that does allow for interpretation.
I don't know about your assessment of the Constitution as a "living thing."  I agree, however, that it, like any legal document, must be interpreted.  But, there is a huge difference between interpreting the Constitution's text and just making it up as you go along.  That is, when you interpret a documnent, the text of the document has to provide a basis for your interpretation.  The Supreme Court has long since stopped interpreting the Constitution.  What it does is interpret its prior interpretations of the Constitution.  This allows for a completely relativistic interpretive system, under which "never" can ultimately be construed to mean "always."  

This approach, in my opinion, violates the separation of powers upon which our system is based.  Congress is to make law, not the judiciary.  If enough people think that "always" should mean "never," however, the Constitution can be changed to reflect that.  In that sense, it is a "living document."  That is, the Constitution expressly provides a mechanism by which it can be changed:  But that mechanism is amendment, not judicial activism.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2003, 05:19:42 PM by LoneStarBuckeye »

Offline crowMAW

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« Reply #82 on: August 22, 2003, 05:56:11 PM »
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Originally posted by LoneStarBuckeye
No true Christian (What's up with "xian" anyway?  Are you trying to be offensive?) would ever seek to impose his or her "moralistic values" on anyone.  Didn't Jesus wash the feet of the prostitute by the well?  

First let me apologize for the abbreviation...I'm not trying to be offensive.  It is a common contraction on some of the religious forums that I frequent.  I will try to remember not to use it here.

The comment on "no true Christian" opens a can of worms that has been debated ad infinitum elsewhere.  But the crux is...even Christians have a hard time defining what criteria to use to determine a "true Christian" or how a "true Christian" would behave.  So, now my question to you LoneStar is, what would Jesus say about this situation?  Would He approve of Moore's behavior?  Would Jesus want governments to be used for the purpose of evangelizing or would Jesus prefer that people come to Him of their own volition and free will?

Quote
Originally posted by LoneStarBuckeye
Having said that, realize that we cannot exist in a moral vaccuum.  The morals--i.e., the rules, laws, etc.--by which we govern ourselves and restrain our behavior have to come from somewhere.  The alternative is anarchy.

The laws do have to come from somewhere.  But is it not possible to limit legislation such that there is no intrusion upon my liberty to engage in practices that, while doing no harm to anyone else, may not be approved by religious authorities?  Is there a danger of legislation to be created based on religious dogma whose only purpose is to coerce individuals to conform to that dogma and ads no value to the goal of protecting individual life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?  

I believe there are a set of laws that can and have been enacted that are limited to protecting life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and limit the ability of other individuals to infringe upon my rights.  Those laws do not encourage anarchy. And those laws may be considered moral by religious authorities.

Conversely, it is possible to have laws which only coerce religious dogma which are considered moral by religious authorities, but they are unnecessary and do not create more order or less anarchy and restrict individual liberty.

Quote
Originally posted by LoneStarBuckeye
Don't you think that those who seek to obliterate all traces of our Judeo-Christian heritage and its attendant concept of morality have their own "moralistic values" that they seek to impose?

You overstate the situation.  There are many who would like to obliterate all traces of our Judeo-Christian heritage from government only.  Of the non-theists who are supporters of the US Constitution that I've associated with over the years, I've yet to meet one who had any desire to impose their non-theistic views on individuals via government...and most would not evangelize non-theism in any way form or fashion.  A secular and religion-neutral government does not tell you that God does not exist...nor does it tell you that God does exist.  It allows each individual to make that determination on their own without any interference what so ever from the coercive authority that is government.  Do you really feel it is necessary for government to evangelize Christianity via our pledge, money, and 2 ton monuments in our courthouses?

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2003, 05:58:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by crowMAW
I need only look at history to see that fundamentalism leads to intolerance and intolerance leads to violence against those who do not share the same religious views.  Do you really want me to list the atrocities carried out by Christians that equal those of the Taliban?  Do you really believe that a theocratic US governed by fundies would be anymore enlightened?  If so, you have not had enough experience with the intolerance of fundamentalists that I have had.


I too can look at history and find that any society religious or not is capable of and has acted with great cruelty. Are you suggesting that only religious zealots are capable of this? Seems to me that you are putting a slant on this based on your own prejudices.
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Offline LoneStarBuckeye

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« Reply #84 on: August 22, 2003, 07:11:23 PM »
Crow:

First, let me correct myself:  Jesus did not wash the feet of the prostitute; she washed his.  In any case, the point is the same:  He comforted her in her time of need without trying to cram his morality down her throat.  That was his M.O., and that was one reason he was loved.  Further, I think that defining a "true Christian" is a simple matter that follows from the term itself:  A "true Christian" is one who seeks to emulate Christ.

I agree with you that the government has no business in the religion business.  (I would go further and say that I think that "religion" has been bad for mankind, but that's a topic for another day.)  I think that this viewpoint follows naturally from a common-sense reading of history, given the myriad atrocities, injustices, and plain bad policy that have wrought in the name of God and church.  

To answer your question, I don't really know what Jesus would think about this nonsense.  My guess is that it would not make it onto his radar screen, because, from His perspective, it is much ado about nothing.  He always showed disdain for those who were self-righteously religious, and I suspect that he might view this judge in the same way.

Regarding your comment that I am "overstating the situation," I guess we'll just have to disagree on that point.

And, by the way, don't worry about offending me.  I was just trying to gauge your intent.  Certain subtleties of expression don't convey well over the Internet.

Offline crowMAW

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« Reply #85 on: August 22, 2003, 07:42:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
I too can look at history and find that any society religious or not is capable of and has acted with great cruelty. Are you suggesting that only religious zealots are capable of this? Seems to me that you are putting a slant on this based on your own prejudices.

You may be right that I have been prejudiced by my experiences with theistic intolerance, discrimination and persecution of non-theists.

However, I think you will be hard pressed to list an equal set of examples of secular societies committing atrocities when compared to atrocities committed in the name of religion over the past several thousand years (6000years if you are a young earther).  One caveat is Communism, which I consider to be a situation where the state is the religion, the state supplants God, and the citizens worship the state.  Communism is equally as bad as any theocracy.

Offline Twist

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« Reply #86 on: August 22, 2003, 08:55:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lizard3
Actually, he's closer to Stalin. He uses fear and intimidation to enrich himself and his cronies, while under the guise of helping the black man.  Oh, thats another thread, but you brought it up.


Oh NOW you've done it, you woke up da Lizard :D

SHOW 'EM THE SCAR MAN!

:D

It's OK to use the commandments as a behavioral guide to emulate Jesus and how he lived but I can't go along with using them as political weapon. If they are allowed to remain we run the risk of opening a Pandora's box. I personally would like to see them stay but when I look at the big picture and the possible repercussions, I say we need to find this big rock another home.


Just checked my pulse, 62, I dun good :D
Razer

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"They porked the Hellcat? Why did they do that?"

Offline Snork

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« Reply #87 on: August 22, 2003, 09:48:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
just wondering how many of the crowd who wants to see this display go are in favor of removing the practice of one swearing on a bible or to God in any court?

I think most if not all ... sad


Sad not to want to swear on a book or entity I don't believe in? Would it be better to just shine everyone on and leave it "status quo"?
Flying as Noser

Offline Montezuma

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« Reply #88 on: August 22, 2003, 09:53:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
thanks for the snapshot of what is wrong with today's enlightenment or the lack thereof


Do you have any snapshots of your maidservant?

Offline Snork

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« Reply #89 on: August 22, 2003, 10:02:35 PM »
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Originally posted by LoneStarBuckeye
Didn't Jesus wash the feet of the prostitute by the well?  

 


Any resemblance between modern Christians and the actions of Jesus Christ are purely coincidental.
Flying as Noser