Alabamas Judge Roy Moore

[Dago]

So sad to see a narrow minded person getting so much publicity.  He is playing politician now, no doubt working up votes for some planned run for a Governor job or something.

I don't understand why he doesn't understand the principals our country is based, and currently operating on.

Maybe we need the Torah, the Koran and every other religious equivalent to the Bible on display next to his Ten Commandments monument?  He basically feels only the religion he believes in should be recognized.  He misses the ordered by court concept that no government building should display any religious itmes.

Time for these fanatics to open their eyes and recognize that there are an awful lot of citizens of our country who don't share his beliefs and don't need their "Christian" views shoved in their face.

dago

[Udie]

Article I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof......


Sounds to me like the federal judge is the one who doesn't undertand the principles of our nations....

[rpm]

Anyone in cahoots with a "Show me the Money" Televangelist should be kicked off the bench.

[midnight Target]

How boring!

I agree.... yawn.

[Sabre]

Originally posted by Dago
So sad to see a narrow minded person getting so much publicity.  He is playing politician now, no doubt working up votes for some planned run for a Governor job or something.

Narrowminded implies the person can not see or acknowledge another's point of view.  That is not the case here; Judge Moore simply doesn't accept that other point of view.  Not the same thing.  He could indeed have polictical ambitions at the root of his current stance, or he could be trying to make a statement about what he feels is an incorrect interpretation of the law.  Is it not narrowminded of you to assume it is political ambition, rather than a moral belief, that drives him?

I don't understand why he doesn't understand the principals our country is based, and currently operating on.

Again, you can understand another's position without agreeing with it.  That's not being narrowminded.  Those who cannot "understand" another position are the narrowminded ones.

Maybe we need the Torah, the Koran and every other religious equivalent to the Bible on display next to his Ten Commandments monument?  He basically feels only the religion he believes in should be recognized.  He misses the ordered by court concept that no government building should display any religious itmes.

You are assuming he would object to someone displaying such a book in a government building.  Whether you believe the 10 Commandments were written by a supreme being, or simply by a wise human being, they are a historical text that has had undeniable and pervasive influence on our legal system in this country.  Thus, I don't find them out of place in a courthouse.  I certainly understand the argument to the countrary, but disagree with it.  Also, the whole point of Judge Moore's stance on this may in fact be to force the Supreme Court to re-evaluate the current interpretation of the "seperation of church and state" language in the constitution.

Time for these fanatics to open their eyes and recognize that there are an awful lot of citizens of our country who don't share his beliefs and don't need their "Christian" views shoved in their face.

dago [/B]

"Fanatics" is hardly a fitting title for this man, as far as I can determine.  It's a rather harsh brush to paint a man who is standing up for his principle, peacefully and non-violently.  The term "shoved in their face" is also a bit of a stretch.  It is no more of an affront to a visitor to that building that, say, the bibles place by the Gideons in every hotel room in America.  I do however understand why some might misenterpret the display as endorsement by the government of Judian-Christian religion.  Would not a simple plaque, explaing that the display was a donated by a citizen, and is place there in acknowledgement of this ancient text's influence on the original genisis of our legal system?  Seems a reasonable way to handle things.

[Dago]

I kinda wonder how many Christians would be happy to hear their small children had a Jewish teacher who made them learn and say Jewish prayers at school?

Would there Christians happy to hear a Muslim was elected to Governor of their state and decided to erect a monument in the state capital with the sayings of the Prophet Mohammed on them for every to see, while making sure no Christian ideology is displayed?

Maybe in front of City Hall, they could view a display of birth of Mohammed?

I suspect most Christians would not appreciate this very much, so why not understand why other religions don't agree that they should be subjected to the displays of Christianity on government grounds?  It is a government of all the people isn't it?  No government office is chartered to be Christian government office is it?

I think the best thing we can do as a country and culture of so many believes and values is to respect each others believes and keep all levels of government free of religious influence.

dago

[rpm]

It is no more of an affront to a visitor to that building that, say, the bibles place by the Gideons in every hotel room in America.

Hotels are not paid for with Tax dollars and are not run by Government officials. If you do not like having a Bible in your room you have the option to a) call and have the book removed, b) check out of the hotel. Not the same thing.
What if this guy was a Buddist and wanted a Budda there? People would be climbing the walls to get him out. Government buildings should be a Switzerland of religious beliefs. Neutral.

[hblair]

I have a couple of different opinions on this matter.

First off, Roy Moore was a circuit judge here in etowah county several years ago. He was known then for havng the ten commandments on the wall of his courtroom at that time. For years we read about the good judge scrapping with the ACLU over this. He gained notoriety and fame here in Alabama. A few years ago, bingo, the ol boy is elected chief justice of the Alabama supreme court. Shortly thereafter, the 2 ton 10 commandments monument is installed in the lobby after midnight one night. The local black demos were pissed and decided they would also have a big banner transscript of MLK's "I have a dream" speech hang near the monument. They were met at the door by state troopers who kicked them out. Not good christian P.R. huh? So, Moores monument has been there at the center of controversy for the past few years.

IMO Roy moore is just a good politician. I don't see how a true christian man could in good faith be the creator of such a divisive controversy. True, jesus an the Aostles were at the center of controversy, but they were preaching, doing some good. The guys not going to save souls by having so many people in an uproar over a granite rock on state property.

But I have to admit there's a side of me that thinks its funny to see so many people pissed at the judge. Why? because he had a rock with some very historical scripture carved into it. Reading it ya know, is VERY offensive if yer not a christian!!:mad:

heh heh

[Sabre]

Originally posted by Dago
I kinda wonder how many Christians would be happy to hear their small children had a Jewish teacher who made them learn and say Jewish prayers at school?

Would there Christians happy to hear a Muslim was elected to Governor of their state and decided to erect a monument in the state capital with the sayings of the Prophet Mohammed on them for every to see, while making sure no Christian ideology is displayed?

Maybe in front of City Hall, they could view a display of birth of Mohammed?

I suspect most Christians would not appreciate this very much, so why not understand why other religions don't agree that they should be subjected to the displays of Christianity on government grounds?  It is a government of all the people isn't it?  No government office is chartered to be Christian government office is it?

I think the best thing we can do as a country and culture of so many believes and values is to respect each others believes and keep all levels of government free of religious influence.

dago

No, I would definitely object to a public school teacher forcing my child to say jewish prayers in class.  I would not object, however, to him (assuming it's a him) wearing the little hat on his own head.  I simpy don't equate having this historically importent text on display with "forcing" someone to follow religious practices.  Regarding your notional muslum governor, I suppose it would depend.  If the saying were historically important to the formation of that state's government, and did not advocate breaking of those laws, then I would have to consider it in the same light as the Moore controversy.  Of course, that monument would have to be paid for by that governer, and not taxpayers, and be in good taste .  My personal view (and that's all I can speak for), is that this display (the Commandments), if properly labled as a private donation to acknowlegde the historical importance of the text to our laws, wouldn't violate the constitution.

RPM, you're correct that hotels are private property.  My point was that reasonable people don't take offense so easily.  I value greatly the diversity of our society.  I also believe it revisionist to not acknowledge history, which is what the display is about, in my eyes at least.  I would submit that those who brought suit against the Judge for displaying this sculpture are at least as politically driven as the Judge.

By the way, I work in a federally built and maintained building, and keep a bible on my desk in plain view.  Should I be required to hide it?  Would that not be denying the contribution of my culture to our diverse society? (Waiting for the law suits to hit now)

[Trell]

Am i the only one who does not care what he has on his walls.
as long as judges fairly.

I dont care if he has the koran, bible or anyother thing.
judging  him by his religion is just as bad as him judging by his own religion.

[rc51]

In the Court room the have you swear apon the bible.
In the Bible is the Ten commandments.
Whats the problem?

[LoneStarBuckeye]

Dago:

Your points about other religions are legitimate.  However, that sort of reasoning does not turn the Establishment Clause into something that it was never meant to be (only the dreaded 5 of 9 can--and do--do that).  

Besides the obvious fact that the actual language of the Establishment Clause does not support the notion, there are too many examples of Judeo-Christian ideology associated with the (early) United States (e.g., "In God We Trust", "all men are created equal", etc.)  to think that the drafters of the Bill of Rights intended to proscribe displaying the Ten Commandments in a government building.  If you look at European history (and you probably have), it is pretty easy to divine what the drafters intended to prohibit.  To me, the prospect of seeing a statue of Mohammed in Washington, D.C. is not so scary as having unelected, life-tenured, federal judges treating the Constitution as a "nose of wax," twisted and turned, contorted and distrorted, to conform with their personal morality.

Just my $0.02,

JNOV

[Dago]

Maybe I feel differantly than others because I lived in a country where I was constantly exposed to another religion, and where any displays of my religion (I am a Christian) where banned at the threat of prison.

Regardless, I believe that religion has no place in the government, reather the government should be neutral.  There is a guaranteed right to freedom of  religion, any religion in our country.  We should guard this right passionately.  Worship in your church, pray, display the Bible in your home, whatever, but for so many reasons a courthouse nor government facility is not the place for it.


Interesting observation about the courts still asking people to swear on the Bible, I seem to remember last time I was in a court, there wasn't a Bible in view, but I think the oath was the same.  Maybe that should be changed?

Sure is nice of the Judge to allow the people of Alabama to pay the $5000 daily fine for having the commandments on display, I guess Alabama taxpayers have alot of spare tax money to toss away.


dago

[aknimitz]

From CNN:

"The people of this state elected me as chief justice to uphold our constitution, which established our justice system on invoking the favor and guidance of almighty God," Moore said. "To do my duty, I must acknowledge God. That's what this case is about." 1. You dont have to put your hand on the bible in the courtroom, you can affird (dont have to swear).

What an idiot this guy is. This is absolutely tantamount to taking the law into your own hands. To do his duty, he must acknowledge God? Oh, I'm sorry ... I thought to do your duty, you must acknowedge the law.

Does it REALLY bother me that the Ten Commandments are in the courtroom? No. Would I prefer they not  be? Yes. Do I think in a literal and pure sense it is a violation of the Establishment Clause, yes. But this comment that he made above clearly establishes that this is about religion, and it is about keeping religion in the courtrooms and in the schools and in the government.

Couple of general comments addressing posts from above:

1. You dont have to put your hand on the bible in a courtroom. You can affirm in lieu of swearing.

2. Only religious people call the Ten Commandments "Historically important text" ... I call it fiction.

3. "Created" does not have biblical conotations, imho. When you mix blue and yellow, you create green.

4. Clearly modern time is far more complicated than the founding fathers could have anticipated. Christmas, to a large extent, has become a secular holiday ... as has Thanksgiving. Even Easter is becoming a secular holiday in some senses. So there are so many examples of celebrating "religious" holidays wherein it is difficult to separate the religious from the holiday.

5. Personally, I dont understand why we have to have "In God We Trust" on our currency, or the Ten Commandments in the courtroom. I have yet to hear a valid argument that supports the position that both of those examples are not infringing on the Establishment clause, in its purist state.

Just my $.02

Nim

[Dago]

Well said Nim.