Author Topic: Enough is Enough!  (Read 4619 times)

Offline Martlet

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Enough is Enough!
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2003, 03:45:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm371
Then you know I am correct. :)


I know you don't HAVE to do anything, but they still say it.

Whether you chose to affirm or not, they say it.  JUST like they do when you get sworn into office.

Offline Silat

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True story of the pledge
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2003, 04:16:49 AM »
The Pledge of Allegiance
A Short History
by Dr. John W. Baer
Copyright 1992 by Dr. John W. Baer
 


Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).

Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward Bellamy in his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class could create a planned economy with political, social and economic equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy similar to our present military industrial complex.

The Pledge was published in the September 8th issue of The Youth's Companion, the leading family magazine and the Reader's Digest of its day. Its owner and editor, Daniel Ford, had hired Francis in 1891 as his assistant when Francis was pressured into leaving his baptist church in Boston because of his socialist sermons. As a member of his congregation, Ford had enjoyed Francis's sermons. Ford later founded the liberal and often controversial Ford Hall Forum, located in downtown Boston.

In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state superintendents of education in the National Education Association. As its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools' quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He structured this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.'

His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ]

Dr. Mortimer Adler, American philosopher and last living founder of the Great Books program at Saint John's College, has analyzed these ideas in his book, The Six Great Ideas. He argues that the three great ideas of the American political tradition are 'equality, liberty and justice for all.' 'Justice' mediates between the often conflicting goals of 'liberty' and 'equality.'

In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored.

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.

Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church in 1891 because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there.

What follows is Bellamy's own account of some of the thoughts that went through his mind in August, 1892, as he picked the words of his Pledge:

It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution...with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people...

The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands.' ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future?

Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity.' No, that would be too fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all...

If the Pledge's historical pattern repeats, its words will be modified during this decade. Below are two possible changes.

Some prolife advocates recite the following slightly revised Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, born and unborn.'

A few liberals recite a slightly revised version of Bellamy's original Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all.'
+Silat
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Offline takeda

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Re: Enough is Enough!
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2003, 05:46:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bodhi
even though our laws were founded on Judeo-Christian Ethics....  


Bzzzt, wrong.
You can trace most of it to Germanic tribal customs and Roman Law. Western laws are mostly founded on Pagan Ethics!

Offline beet1e

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Re: Enough is Enough!
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2003, 05:49:01 AM »
My views echo those of MarkVZ.
Quote
Originally posted by Bodhi
Leaving that monument in the state court house does not hurt anyone, but removing it hurts far more.  It shows the children that not only will we turn a blind eye to God, and not defend him, but it shows we will back the denial of his existence.
Bodhi,

I'm afraid I disagree. First and foremost, that 2-ton rock does not belong on a courthouse. The words inscribed upon it belong in a book, available to those who want to read it. Law and Justice should not be affiliated with Religion, especially when the First Amendment to the US Constitution is taken into account. That's the one that promises to allow each citizen to practise the religion of his/her choice - within legal limits, of course. The whole point of that First Amendment, and even the existence of the United States itself, was to deliver the settlers from the religious persecution that they might have suffered in the old country. But here is a Judge who is clearly going to be somewhat biased if he is to try someone who might have broken no law but is, in the eyes of the Judge, a sinner or one who has violated God's law. For example, imagine if that judge were to be presiding over a dispute in a divorce settlement case, and it turned out that the plaintiff was an aggrieved wife who was trying to squeeze more money out of her estranged husband, who had moved on from a dead marriage and had since found a new girlfriend. Adultery is not a criminal offence, but what are the husband's chances of fair treatment, when there's a rock outside with the words "Thou shall not commit adultery" emblazoned across it?

Offline Dowding

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Enough is Enough!
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2003, 06:13:45 AM »
Religion should be as far away from government and state as humanly possible. You just need to look at certain middle Eastern countries for the reasons why.

If you want to practise your religion, go to a church, mosque, temple or synagogue. Keep it out of my face and out of my government.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Eagler

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Enough is Enough!
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2003, 06:33:09 AM »
strange how ppl can't see that a majority of our problems begin with a lack of a belief in the Divine

ppl are selfish and do not want the guilt of their actions to bother them so they choose not to believe - easier for them to live their lifestyle.

strange how these same ppl categorize anyone who believes in God a "religious, right wing nutcase, Pat Robertson clone".

wtg bodhi
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Offline blur

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Enough is Enough!
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2003, 07:06:20 AM »
IDOL WORSHIPPERS!

MAY YOU ALL BURN IN HELL!!

Offline Ripsnort

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Enough is Enough!
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2003, 07:37:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler

strange how these same ppl categorize anyone who believes in God a "religious, right wing nutcase, Pat Robertson clone".

wtg bodhi


Bill and Hillary attended church every Sunday.

Offline ra

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Enough is Enough!
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2003, 07:50:27 AM »
Maybe it's time we tear down all those crucifixes in Arlington Cemetery and replace them with secular retangular headstones.  If those stiffs want to be buried with a symbol of religious oppression planted over their heads, let them get a private plot.  And make sure there is a tall wall around it so the rest of us can't see it when we walk by.  That's what the Constitution is all about.

ra

Offline Dowding

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Enough is Enough!
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2003, 08:11:30 AM »
So Jewish soldiers are buried under the cross of Christ?
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Offline ra

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Enough is Enough!
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2003, 08:15:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
So Jewish soldiers are buried under the cross of Christ?

Jewish soldiers get a Star of David engraved on their tombstone, Christians get a crucifix engraved.  There are, however, many crucifix memorials throughout the cemetery.  As all of this is paid for by the government, it is obviously an attempt to establish religion.

ra

Offline Dowding

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Enough is Enough!
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2003, 08:25:12 AM »
Quote
Jewish soldiers get a Star of David engraved on their tombstone, Christians get a crucifix engraved.


So it comes down to personal choice as to how your grave is marked rather than an automatic blanket representation.

Quote
There are, however, many crucifix memorials throughout the cemetery. As all of this is paid for by the government, it is obviously an attempt to establish religion.


Of course, legislation is both created and acted upon within cemetries, affecting how people can pursue their lives and interact with society.
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Offline Ripsnort

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Enough is Enough!
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2003, 08:26:18 AM »
The Constitution says "Freedom of Religion".  If anyone wants "Freedom from Religion" then I suggest you move.  There are too many negative people in the US just looking to invent flaws and an uncanny desire to expose them.

I personally am not a deeply religious person, but I live and let live.

Offline Dowding

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Enough is Enough!
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2003, 08:35:38 AM »
'Religion' = 'Way of Life'

A belief system is not specified. Freedom from the influence of organised religion does not neccesarily mean lack of any religion at all.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Sixpence

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Enough is Enough!
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2003, 08:43:38 AM »
Ahh, the extremists views, the exact reason there is separation of church and state.

Think about it, somewhere in the middle east, there are people saying the same thing you are. That society is being torn apart because we are getting away from our islamic beliefs. And that western influence and non belief in God is tearing the nation apart.

Yet, if we were to hear that countries in the middle east were creating a separation of church and state, and that the Koran could no longer influence political thinking, we would see this as a great breakthrough. That the middle east is coming of age. And if there were people trying to prevent this change, you would call them religious extremists.

And don't try to say that their religion is bad because they stone their women, they can find fault in your religion too, that argument doesn't fly.

I prefer to be loyal to my country over my religion. And what this judge is doing is the exact opposite.
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)