Author Topic: P 51 antidote  (Read 1994 times)

Offline J_A_B

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3012
P 51 antidote
« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2000, 08:22:00 PM »
Year is almost irrevelant when discussing combat planes of WW2, because Europe had a two year head start over the USA and Japan in serious warplane development.

Look at it like this:

When a country is at peace, military budget for R&D is very, very small.  However, if a country is at war, Research instantly gets a massive increase in budget.

This is why, in summer 1942, UK and spit9's, Germany had 109G's and FW's...and the USA had P-40E's.

I prefer to look at fighters this way:

How long did it take for a given type to get into service after its home country went to war:

Examples:

Spit XIV = early 1944 = 4.5 years after UK went to war

Bf-109F = early 1941 = 1.25 years after Germany went to war.

F6F = mid 1943 = 1.5 years after America went to war.


By this system, planes match up with each other much, much better.  For example, the 109F and F6F are in the same company as each other....and in most sims they have comparible performance.

There are a few problems with my method--it isn't perfect.  However, I feel it is a lot more fair (in terms of balance) than simply saying "since plane X was made in year Y, I want so-and-so from year Y too"

Any comparison based solely on year of intorduction is inerently unfair to USA, Japan, and to a lersser extent, SOviet Union.


On a unrelated note....you wouldn't want a P-51B because it actually performs slightly better than the D model (about 5 MPH faster, and lighter).


J_A_B

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
P 51 antidote
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2000, 09:20:00 PM »
Actually; the poor LW never did much more than slap an endless pile of accoutraments and engines in and on the only two decent planes they could make in numbers enuff to possibly be a deterrent to the allied bombers. (Hitlers 262 screwup notwithstanding)

The good ol US of A on the other hand; being at that time thickly populated with opportunists with airplane companys in their pockets and forwarned by 18 months of War in Europe... well; we all know how that came out.  

 
Quote
On a unrelated note....you wouldn't want a P-51B because it actually performs slightly better than the D model (about 5 MPH faster, and lighter).

Muahahhahaaaaaaaaa.. Yah. I know. Turns better, and has better accel. Thinner wing and fast as hell on the deck. Sure would be nice to see either a Mustang III in Polish colors with the Malcom Hood or Bud Andersons' P51B "Old Crow".

Surely, the LW need not fear a 4-Gun Pony.  

Hang


The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

coyote

  • Guest
P 51 antidote
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2000, 10:10:00 PM »
I think the sky nazi's should just shut up.... Did they not just get a Ju-88? mebe they forgot already... I don't care if they get a D9, I just get tired of hearing them CRY beacause they "Enemy" has a plane that is faster than theirs....   (g10 catches p51 btw) They say all p51 has to do is put nose down and dive away... yup , that is the price u pay for flying at 35k in your g10, fight at lower altitudes and u might have a better chance at overtaking your target b4 compression sets in......

Personally I love flying low and killing guys who our overconfident because they have 15,000 feet on me... only problem is the gang bangers who cant handle a fair fight, but that is just a symptom of the arena we have , where u can skip stones from on airfield to the next and are lead around by the nose with the arcade radar. I think the answer is not to give one group of  pilots an UBER plane, but to make the arena better suited to all modes of play.

I think we should have an areana with small clusters of airfields separated my 100 mile(4 grids) areas of "no man's land" terrain, not covered by radar dots and "sector counters" where the true fighter pilot can hunt and kill as it was meant to be... Where SA, not watching the radar on  your knee board, is the order of the day...

One more thing, Make sure when you do introduce the Dora, you have a little message window that pops up randomly when the Dora Dweeb clicks "fly".. the Message will say "Sorry , the 3rd Reich does not have enough petrol for you to go flying today, please try again in 24 hours!"  

Offline Fariz

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1087
      • http://9giap.warriormage.com
P 51 antidote
« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2000, 11:02:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Hristo:
Yes, Tshred, you tell them !

They should stop modeling those butt ugly US planes already.

Yeah, and start modeling russian planes   VVS need one capable buff at least. LW already has 5 billion of uber planes. No, I like it, they burn fine, but it is just too much smoke in the game already, every time I see them they start burning somehow  

Fariz

Offline Spatula

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1486
P 51 antidote
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2000, 11:54:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Fariz:
Yeah, and start modeling russian planes    

Yah, i say bring on the LA-7. I reckon that would be a great pony antidote  

The best pony antidote is allready here and is russian, the yak. These planes scare me more than the g10...

Santa, pitty i didnt get that scrap on film was one of the best fights ever  



[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 09-21-2000).]
Airborne Kitchen Utensil Assault Group

Offline Pongo

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6701
P 51 antidote
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2000, 12:18:00 AM »
I think coyote has a poor grasp on reality. An an even weaker grasp on simulation.

Offline minus

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 595
P 51 antidote
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2000, 12:40:00 AM »
well LW  pilots are crap we sux we whine
 but this crap players buting your super ases   HOW many time u fly the 190A8 ?????? all of u ??
 we try out your dweb rides and we enjoy the ride in pony or hog,  who got how many kils in what plane NOt prove nothing i Em for perk system when a heavy RIDE will be reward!!
and yes PERK the 262 to MAX and perk system will be nice if work like for us Perk plane  cumulate point in US plane
for Brit perk plane in brit plane
and For german Perk plane  in german plane
so the mutimilon c hog kiler vil never tuch 262
british can have Meteor the us P 80 ? no idea if it see real war time operation
 the biG Q what to perk For  IJN and Soviet ?>
>
> ?
 and stop squeakin on LW   u need LW  like Target  or take a way all LW planes and bounce each other in  ponys and hogs
surely will be Big fun

Offline minus

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 595
P 51 antidote
« Reply #52 on: September 22, 2000, 12:46:00 AM »
Originally posted by Hristo:
Leonid, Yaks did not fight P 51s in WW2 (with few notable exceptions).

well in Slovakia the the Dumb piloted  Pony B driver with yelow tail ?? ( not remeber this exactly what  marking have )
 engaget a LA 7 in Slovakia colors in 44 that time some litle anti nazi revolt vas in Slovakia with open internal front and pony vas down in flames

 the pilot tryed disengage the Super agresive pony but no way finaly the only way vas to shot the plane down :-)
pony crash landet  pilot survived  

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23046
P 51 antidote
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2000, 01:22:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by J_A_B:
Year is almost irrevelant when discussing combat planes of WW2, because Europe had a two year head start over the USA and Japan in serious warplane development.
Look at it like this:

When a country is at peace, military budget for R&D is very, very small. However, if a country is at war, Research instantly gets a massive increase in budget.

This is why, in summer 1942, UK and spit9's, Germany had 109G's and FW's...and the USA had P-40E's.

I prefer to look at fighters this way:

How long did it take for a given type to get into service after its home country went to war:

Examples:

Spit XIV = early 1944 = 4.5 years after UK went to war

Bf-109F = early 1941 = 1.25 years after Germany went to war.

F6F = mid 1943 = 1.5 years after America went to war.

No, this doesn't work.

I have to admit that it looks good at first on paper, but then I thought about it.

There was concurrent engine development in the USA and Japan.  Italy is the only country which stopped engine development in the '30s.  The P-38, P-47, P-51 and F6F were all in service or development before the US got involved (F6F had to be refocused due to the Zero).  The B-17 and B-24 were also pre-war.  Jiro Horikoshi had already finished the Zero and was hard at work on the J2M and A7M fighters when the war broke out (J2M was used, A7M would have been introduced in mid 43 to mid 44 if the IJN had let Horikoshi use the engine he wanted to use instead of forcing him to use a different engine and then redesign it for the one he wanted).

What it comes down to is that all major industrial countries were doing everything they could to build better warplanes from about '37-'39 onwards.

You had a nice idea though.

Sisu
-Karnak
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Hristo

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1150
P 51 antidote
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2000, 01:58:00 AM »
To clarify some things:

Fw 190D-9 is an icon. Some of you see it as dweebmobile the LW needs. No, Fw 190A-8 and Me 109G-10 are suffificent to kill the P 51s (with competent pilot, that is). But Dora would face them on equal footing, where they wouldn't run away.

The Dora symbolizes the best German prop plane (much like P 51 symbolizes US airpower). HTC refusal to model it looks rather suspicious. No conspiracy, just US kids playability issue. Instead, they offer us the underdog versions of early 109s. So the numbers count and can be brought into discussion.

Why P 47D ? Why not P 40 instead ? Or P 39 ?

Instead of Dora, we got 109F-4, 109G-2 and 109G-6 (no MW 50, of course).

However, if you are really looking for dweebmobile modeled without any historical record in mind, go look for C-Hog. It has been introduced to satisfy the dweebs.

And Coyote - I met you few times in the arena. You were always above me. In C-Hog. But you failed to score. You call us whiners ? Sorry, puke, but we shot enough P 51s in 109s and 190s already. Dora might just be too much for you.

You think Fishu needs a Dora to get a better K/D ?! Get real ! Fishu made 300+ kills with no death in Fw 190A-8 !!! Maybe he just wants to catch those P51s who managed to run to ack back then. Maybe he would like to fly the Dora just because it is famous plane.

Too many cocky statements from Allied types. I wonder how on Earth they lost The Rumble  . Or maybe they don't walk the walk ?

[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 09-22-2000).]

Offline Torque

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2091
P 51 antidote
« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2000, 04:50:00 AM »
Hope ya get it more for my UberDuper Hawg to kill. Since new FM my CHawg kills more 109s and 190s now than ever before.

Offline Hristo

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1150
P 51 antidote
« Reply #56 on: September 22, 2000, 04:55:00 AM »
The D-Hog ? Or Quake model ?

Offline leonid

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 239
P 51 antidote
« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2000, 05:41:00 AM »
Remember, Yak kills
 


------------------
leonid, Kompol
5 GIAP VVS-KA, Knights

"Our cause is just.  The enemy will be crushed.  Victory will be ours."
ingame: Raz

Offline Vermillion

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4012
P 51 antidote
« Reply #58 on: September 22, 2000, 07:24:00 AM »
The F4U-1C is here to stay, learn to live with it guys. The incessant whines just makes yourself (whoever is currently the whiner) look plain childish.

There does seem to be a major misconception I see being repeated. The "If we had a plane as fast, we can stop the Pony drivers from running away!!!".

Not necessarily true.

You can take two exactly equal aircraft in speed, and I can consistently run away from one with the other.

Its all about initial E states, angles off the nose, keeping up your velocity, and knowing when to cut your losses and extend (ie run away like a screaming little girl   ).  In other words, being a good E fighter.

For instance if you fly smart, you can consistently run away from the P-51 in the Yak. And the Yak is slower than the P-51 at most altitudes.

Remember the famous US political statement "Its the Economy, Stupid!"

Well... "Its the pilots, stupid!"  


------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

Offline Westy

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2871
P 51 antidote
« Reply #59 on: September 22, 2000, 07:50:00 AM »
For Minus <G> :

FRIEND OR FOE ?
   AN EARLY SOVIET ENCOUNTER
   by E. Neil Borgnis

-Mission 894, largest ever to Berlin - 1264 heavies and 600 escorting P-51s - was launched against targets in and near the German capital to deliver 3724 tons of bombs. Twelve Mustang fighter groups escorted the bombers while two others went to nearby areas.
As previously agreed, the Russians were notified of the mission and its targets. The encompassed area between the Oder and Pasewalk-Berlin had been defined earlier to ensure that Russian and American forces would not meet accidentally.
Flying from East Wretham, 46 P-5IDs from the 359th Fighter Group divided into two formations - Group A led by Captain Ralph L. Cox, 369th Fighter Squadron, and Group B led by Captain Ray S. Wetmore, leading ace of the 359th with 21.5 victories, with 28 aircraft from the 368th and 370th Fighter Squadrons. The time is now 1135 flying at 2,000 ft when Captain Cox leads them in an attack on aircraft seen strafing Zackerick airfield north of Kustrin.  There are now fifteen aircraft in the area, Germans as well as Russians. Captain Cox brings down a his fifth victory so quickly that he does not have time to identify its markings. His wingman, Lt. Harold R. Gates, barely avoids colliding with that aircraft but clearly sees its white crosses.
In the midst of this confusing dogfight, as aircraft spin down and explode on impact, the Soviet flak, up to now quiet, throws a wall of fire up to 5,000 ft. Red flight dives on two unidentified aircraft climbing at 10 o'clock. Lt. Robert J. Guggemon (Red 3) identifies one of them as a FW-19O while his leader fires a long burst at the other one. Noticing a ventral radiator beneath his opponent, Red Lead realizes that it is a Yak-9.
Just then, Lt. Robert E. McCormak (Red 4) fires a short burst at another aircraft and hits it just as his adversary reverses his turn. McCormak identifies it as a "round-wing Me-109" in gray blue camouflage. Meanwhile, Lt. Bryce H. Thomson (Yellow 3) attacks an aircraft which he believes to be German, but soon realizes his error. Looking aft, he sees another one about to fire at him. Breaking left sharply, Thomson ends up on the tail of a Yak-9 after a 360-degree turn and places himself on its side while wagging his wings to show his national markings and making hand signals.  After hesitating, the Russian responds in kind. With confusion everywhere and little chance of finding the Germans, Cox orders his pilots to break and get back in formation.
 In the meantime, Lt. Robert S. Gaines' flight is in difficulty after being separated from the group over Berlin. While flying at 10,000 feet toward Joachimsthal, Gaines sees three or four unidentified aircraft flying below towards the east. Followed by his flight, Gaines makes a 180-degree turn to the left, losing altitude. While making a pass at the leader, Gaines sees the tail-end Charlie breaking away, notes that it is finished in a bluish scheme and devoid of markings; nevertheless, he formally identifies it as an Me-109. He fires at the aircraft which catches fire and falls toward Joachimsthal Lake. Meanwhile, F/0 Harley E. Berndt (Yellow 4) starts to fire at the second "enemy" aircraft while 600 ft. away and quickly moves in.  After seeing his bullets chew up the wing root and cockpit of the "enemy" aircraft which dives away, Berndt rejoins his leader. Time is 1130.
All over the area, formations are running into each other. Northeast of Berlin, some 65 miles from the German capital, a flight from the 353rd Fighter Group is attacked from the rear by two La-5s. Seeking to be identified as friendly, the US fighters wag their wings, but to no avail. The Russians come back for a second pass. The P-51s fire a few warning shots while the Russian fighters fire at a straggling B-17.  
At 1315, Lt. Tiede, a flight leader in Group A, spots three aircraft above and at 6 o'clock. Crump and Atkins climb toward them and, identifying them as Russians, try to contact them on radio channels A and C. At that very moment, a fourth fighter speeds toward Kyle and fires a short burst at him. The Russian then joins in formation with the other three and, together, they fly away after making a wide turn. The four P--51s then rejoin the stricken B-17 which they escort until 1320 when they are forced by fuel considerations to abandon.
On the Monday following these encounters, Marshal S. A. Kudiakov, chief of staff of the Soviet Air Forces, sent a strong note of protest to Gen. Hill at the US military Mission (USMILMIS) in Moscow. Notably, Marshal Kudiakov stated: 'While near Kustrin, Soviet Yak fighters approached the formation, saw they were Americans, and withdrew. While withdrawing, they came upon German  fighter planes which were about to attack the American formation and so the Soviets attacked the Focke Wulfs. Soon the American Mustangs joined in the battle and shot down 4 Yak planes.
In a report dated 19 March, Col. Alfred R. Maxwell, chief of operations, noted minor incidents: "Two P-51s followed two Yak-9s to Zackerick airdrome north of Kustrin and shot down one of the four Fw-190s which were strafing the airdrome. Russian aircraft were circling the airdrome at the time, and when one crashed, the Soviets threw up intense accurate light flak - the P-51s then withdrew".
    During the melee over the airdrome, one Yak fired on American aircraft without effect. Pilots report Russian aircraft painted blue exactly like identified German planes and that although haze and patchy clouds complicated recognition, recognition signals were ineffective.
In his reply dated 20 March, Gen N. D. Antonov, chief of staff of the Soviet Army, reported the destruction of six Soviet aircraft by US fighters and stated: "When the group of American planes reached Morin (35 kilometers northwest of Kustrin), at the time over the Morin region there were 6 Soviet (Yak-3) fighters.  The Soviet fliers, having noticed the German fighters which were chasing the Americans, attacked the Germans, but they themselves, in turn, were attacked by American fighters".
 On 2 April, Gen.  N. D. Antonov raises his tone: "Your letter of 28 March 1945 did not satisfy me ... In the air at the time and in this region were a total of 8 Soviet fighters and not 34 planes as indicated. Not a single Soviet attack was made on American planes. Soviet flyers recognized American bombers immediately and Soviet fighters attacked no American planes but only German planes. In your letter it is claimed that the Germans did not shoot down a single Russian plane. Consequently all 6 Soviet fighters were shot down by American planes. By observation of Soviet pilots and also by observation of ground troops it was accurately established that American planes flew 6 to 8 kilometers cast of Kustrin. Conclusions drawn from the investigation virtually prove criminal action of individuals of the American Air Force and do not indicate that such actions will not occur again in the future."
The next day, Gen. Arnold had the following message forwarded to Gen. Antonov in which he stated: "I am greatly distressed to learn that further investigation by Gen. Spaatz reveals that some of our US personnel were at fault in the March 18th incident. I deeply regret the death of Soviet flyers and the destruction of Soviet aircraft resulting from this incident. I am requesting General Spaatz to make exhaustive investigation of this incident and to take strict disciplinary action against individuals who are to blame".


 SOURCES-- Detailed mission reports by the 353rd, 357th and 359th FGs--Telex, Memorandum,and Letters from Gen. Spaatz to Colonel Alfred Maxwell, Gen. Anderson to USMTLMIS Moscow, Gen Arnold, War to US Joint Chiefs of Staff, Mighty Eighth War Manual, Missing Air Crew Reports, The Army Air Forces in WWII, to name a few.