P 51 antidote

[bashwolf]

Oh sorry Camel forgot about you  

Bash

Peace in middle East!! or In Aces High

[SOB]

Well, if ya pay, then what the heck's your handle?  I like to know who it is when I get shot outta the sky!  


SOB

[Torque]

YAWN

[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 09-22-2000).]

[Kieren]

What was this thread supposed to accomplish?

An opinion expressed in a non-confrontational manner might be better received. This was a troll from the start.  

[StSanta]

My whole discussion was on planes of near similar ability, for instance the Dora and the P-51. The point was that even if its slightly faster (say the MW50 Dora), the Pony could still outrun it given a smart skilled pilot. Your changing the whole debate, when you go to severly disimilar aircraft.

Hm, you made a comment about it all being up to the pilot, which is true to a large extent but not the entire truth. That was what I was feebly adressing  .  Even Yeager in a Dreidecker will have trouble running from my F-16  

Thats because the P-51 pilot correctly read the relative E states, the situation, and knew when it was time to get away. Whats wrong with that?

Wouldn't have happened if I was in a Dora; he'd be a flaming wreck. Or chances of it would be higher, since judging that e state would be more difficult. If I close to within d800 of a fleeing Runstang in an A5, I consider it a win; the pony has made an error of judgement. Applied the same criterion on myself when I flew the run-oh-nine. Of course, jsut personal criterion.

Its the same for everyone. You pick an aircraft that you want to fly and you live with its characteristics. If you don't
like it, pick another.

And if you're like me, interested in German historical squads, your options are somewhat limited. Our fast fighter handles like a pregnant hippo, and our "nimble" ones are either slower than snails (109F4) or don't really turn (190A5). The option of going allied is non existant in JG54, and I don't want to change squad (you should hear our RW conversations  ). Besides, I hate flying for the good guys. Bad guys unite!

To me, the Dora is no big deal and I'm all for its inclusion in the planeset. I would fly against it, just like I fly against P51's. And yes I would fly the Dora itself, just like I currently fly the P-51, F4U, Yak-9U, and the 109G10.

Great  .

Losing SA in the arena is a problem for everyone, if you lose it, its your own fault. Period.

Agreed. Just saying that it is easier to make a fatal mistake if you're facing a plane you cannot so easily run away from. In an A5 vs 51 fight, the 51 pilot can go "whoops!" and still get away relatively easily. Whch is the way it should be. But with the Dora, ooh baby  

And the part of a Pony being able to easily outrun a A8 that has a significant alt advantage? Bull crap. Pure Luftbabble propaganda.

Hm, don't think I said "significant alt advantage"? I said "e advantage" and that's just what I meant  .

It's sorta like the A5 vs Spits. Co alt, I have very little to fear after we merge. My terms every time in that situation.

b]So? Every BnZ type aircraft has had an across the board cut in effectiveness. It effected them all, no just the G10's.

The G10 is more of an E fighter than a Z&B'er, I think. Other true z&b'ers have good roll rate, better snap shot abilities and so on. There is a reason G10 popularity has gone down greatly. It's still a good plane, but to me the bad performance areas now outweight the good. Personal preference, I gather.

It made hitting enemy aircraft much more difficult for all aircraft, because they are now pulling much harder into defensive manuevers.

Aye, and I used to be a dedicated G10 pilot. Now I fly the A5, because it's so much more effective at fighting. Sucks at running though.

So now, your prefer the 190 because it has more guns (meaning any hit is more effective), and a MUCH larger ammo load, and you can afford to put more ammo downrange hoping for a hit. Thats totally understandably and there's nothing wrong with that. But don't complain because you gave up the speed for the firepower, its your choice.


That's only part of the story though  . I gave up the 109 because now it takes so much *extra* time to maneuver your target into a favourable situation that kill steals or new enemy inbound makes it a bit tedious. I kill very well with the armament in the G10; it's weak, but great for the short distance shot I use. With the A5, I can just dive in, make my shot and be done with it  . Yummie, Spit for breakfast.

My complaint is that either we have this fast fat pregnant pig, or we have relatively slow zoom and boomers. Or the 109F4, which I consider inferior to any Spit or Zeke. The allieds have the choice between; excellent turners that are slow, medium turners that turn decently, z&b'ers that outturn and outrun LW z&b'ers, very fast z&b'ers that turn worse than the A5. The Dora would like a A8 with more speed and altitude performance; the allieds already has plane with such capabilities.

You may catch other aircraft much more easily, but I dont think you will catch too many more P-51's. Fight them to a draw easier maybe, but kill them outright, not necessarily. Mainly because the P51 pilots will fly differently against a Dora, than a A8. The P-51's will go to more Pony vs Pony tactics (which they already know well) which will negate that increase in speed.

Excellent point. But sooner or later a percentage of the Pony drivers will be at a disadvantage and not be able to run so well. And that's where our kills go up, as long as I am not the one trying to shoot.

No, but by that time the fight is already decided. Pilot skill however is an issue, in the fight up until this point. Which is what is important.

There's no skill involved in making three or four bad z&b passes, make a huge error and then clumsily wallow away running like a screaming girl  . Been there too many times personally  

The fight for me is only decided when both parts land, or when one is dead  

I agree. These characteristics are what made the Mustang famous or infamous depending on your point of view.

Thats historical. Wishful thinking or a preference of our favorite airforce, will not and should not change that.

Agreed. But add the Dora, and we will have a plane that'll give it a true run for the money  .

My point is that you guys (the so called "Luftwaffe" contingent) are constantly and continually complaining about the P-51 and the F4U-1C, to the point that it irritates the rest of the community so much it makes them sick to their stomachs.

Don't jdge all LW by the behaviour of a few. And, we have some allieds whiners too, who make at least me sick to the stomach as well.

There might also be a reason for some of these "whines". I am not to let consensus decide what's right or wrong; I ain't that much of a relativist. And I ain't whining about the P-51; I'm saying the Dora would be good to have, because it'd even the playing field a bit.

I fly the Yak-9U and the 109G10 alot, and I have no problem dealing with either of these aircraft. You dont' see me complaining in every thread that pops up.

Well, anti-whine whine, does that count?  

Seriously, you don't see me do that much either anymore. Did before, sure and it probably happens now and then when my brain malfunctions and decide to order my fingers to make a post about that damned dweeb that just shot me down.

What about the British aircraft pilots? the Japanese aircraft pilots? the Russian pilots, the dedicated Italian pilots?

Brits have excellent turners in Spits, and a great z&b'er in the Tiffie. The Russkies have far too few planes, but the YAK-9 is very good indeed. The Japs; same problem, but they have what I consider the best MA general rumble plane now; the N1K. And I've seen whines from all camps.

I've also seen many from the allied camp, and this despite them being the most well represented group in terms of aircraft out there. Just human nature.

Or even the whole rest of the community that flys a little bit of everything? None of other groups, continuously moan and complain to this magnitude.

Some noticeable people do  .

Why is this? We all face the same situations in the arena, day in and day out. We all face lose of SA or disimilar aircraft characteristics. If you don't like the plane you fly, pick another, its real simple.

Sure, but when the choice you have is between either a fast pregnat pig or a slow z&b'er (in z&b terms), there is not much of a choice. Adding the Dora would really help.

I don't cry for the Dora. I don't need it to score kills. But it would be nice.

Each and Every one of the members of the community face the same challenges each time we leave the runway.

Depending on squad affiliation, some have more choices than others.

And yes, i could just switch squads or whatnot. But, if I could stay in the squad, stay with the historical setup for immersion, and still have the option to be able to run with the Runstangs, to fight them in the same way, it'd be a nice, clean soslution.

If you think an aircraft is modeled wrong, present data and prove your point. But don't continuous squeak about a plane because its characteristics outfight the aircraft you have chosen.

God, I hope this is not directed at me.

And Santa, this is not all directly aimed at you.

Phew  .

For one of the "Luftwaffe" contingent, your easily the best about listening to factual data and reasonable debate. But jeez talk to your boys will yah?

<Blushes>

I don't talk to them. They order me around. Apparently, there is no place for a nice person in the Gad Guy camp except the ottom of the food chain  

Its to the point that many members of the community (unfortunately including myself), have heard so many continuous moans and whines, that when a real issue is brought up, they simply disregard it and assume its another baseless complaint.

Yup, a case of crying wolf one too many times. I still feel that there are legitimate posts made even by the whiners.

*rant mode off*

Wow, you can turn it OFF? You overmodelled allied opportunistic LW pig!

<S!>


------------------
StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"

[minus]

THX  Westy a  nice reading, damn no wonder if pony pilots are so dumb in AH also  

[Citabria]

 

And if you're like me, interested in German historical squads, your options are somewhat limited. Our fast fighter handles like a pregnant hippo, and our "nimble" ones are either slower than snails (109F4) or don't really turn (190A5). The option of going allied is non existant in JG54, and I don't want to change squad (you should hear our RW conversations ). Besides, I hate flying for the good guys. Bad guys unite! -StSanta

you are getting a bit of a warped perspective limiting your options that way.

If you don't fly the planes your likely to fight against there is no way you can really see what they are capable of from a first person point of view.

by flying only LW planes you have turned the allied aircraft you refuse to fly into a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.

you only see them from the cockpit of your LW fighter and can only see a 3rd person perspective of what they are capable and not capable of...

if you flew them a bit some of the mystery would be removed and they would be easier to engage effectively to your own aircrafts strengths.

don't fall back on the old excuse of "I fly only LW not that allied garbage"

fly the allied planes too and you will see in a less jaded light how capable the LW planes are.

I've flown the axis planes a bit and the allied planes a bit more and I find both very capable

axis
109G10: 19 kills, 0 deaths
109f4:  16 kills, 3 deaths
190a8:  22 kills, 1 deaths
190a5:   8 kills, 0 deaths
C.205:   7 kills, 0 deaths
C.202:  36 kills,13 deaths
a6m5b:  61 kills,15 deaths

allied
Typhoon:23 kills, 8 deaths
P-47d30:29 kills, 1 deaths
P-38L: 111 kills,20 deaths
P-51D:  63 kills, 5 deaths
spitIX: 72 kills,17 deaths

[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 09-23-2000).]

[Vermillion]

 

Well, anti-whine whine, does that count?

Touche!

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Suave1]

Can you imagine all the LW whining we would have to endure if we ever get the Mustang MK1A .

[Hangtime]

That would be music to my ears.  

[coyote]

 

Originally posted by Hristo
And Coyote - I met you few times in the arena. You were always above me. In C-Hog. But you failed to score. You call us whiners ? Sorry, puke, but we shot enough P 51s in 109s and 190s already. Dora might just be too much for you.

Wow never knew you would resort to lies to try and make your case ? I rarely fly Chogs(not that there is anything wrong with that). I fly em on Jabo missions. I fly P51, 47 and 38 mostly... Say If I failed to "score", how did u know it was me??? Making things up are we? LMAO

[coyote]

 

Originally posted by Pongo:
I think coyote has a poor grasp on reality. An an even weaker grasp on simulation.

At least you were able to have a thought, there has to be some satisfaction for you in that......

[Torque]

         


WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....



[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 09-24-2000).]

[Suave1]

LMAO !
That is too funny . Kudos you magnificient bastard <S>

[Minotaur]

Please....

Always give the LW fans a better ride.  They are very tempremental and emotional.  They need to be pampered.  Every time they lose a fight they get a rectum rash ( ) and then cry about it forever.

And...

Why is it that LW fans can not be beaten?  If they are beaten then it is always "Uber Allied" or "I can't believe that plane did one single thing better than my LW plane could do it"

Further more....

Change the accepted name from "Luft Whiners" to "Luft Winners".  

------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Ass, ass, ass. I said it and im glad."
Easymo