Author Topic: school vouchers  (Read 4162 times)

Offline Kieran

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school vouchers
« Reply #195 on: September 11, 2003, 10:08:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
Kieran, you keep saying this and while I admit that it's true that doesn't mean that it happens. Or at least that it happens on a significant scale. You have numbers or are you just speculating?


Culver Military Academy would be prime example in our area, and they most certainly have stringent academic and behavioral criterion. You're probably not going to see that many get kicked out, because they (the ones likely to be kicked out) aren't going to be there in the first place. They are by nature and intention exclusionary.

Yes, I am speculating. Would it really matter at all if I can provide numbers? I mean, if I bother to post numbers, would it really change your (or anyone else's) mind? If you feel it happens, what can I prove that you aren't already discounting?

See, that's what's frustrating. On my side I acknowledge private schools currently do a better job than public schools, and then offer reasons why that will change under vouchers. Many people on the other side maintain competition is always better, and private schools will be allowed to continue operating as they currently do. I will be a believer in vouchers the second someone can convince me private schools CAN continue to operate as they currently do while using public money. Simple as that. It won't happen in Indiana, I can tell you that.

As for Lazs's asinine comment (am I just being too sensitive Lazs?), the only problem I would ever have going to the private sector is deciding what to do with the extra money and time.

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #196 on: September 11, 2003, 10:30:41 AM »
Religious Schools supported or rejected under vouchers? Much discussion…

http://www.claremont.org/writings/precepts/20020703eastman_meese.html

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=9286

“Either religious freedom will be curbed by the state in religious schools if they receive public money, or there will be a danger to civil liberties from a public sanction and subsidy of religious authority. Remember, schooling is required by law of all children. Religious education, wherever it is done, is always a threat to someone’s civil rights if those rights are inconsistent with the religious beliefs or practices. Look at how so many religions have regarded women, free speech, the rights of teachers or students to dissent. There will be serious erosion of the First Amendment if vouchers are permitted, unless the religious schools are forced to change.
In the South today in more than a dozen states private religious schools, mainly Baptist, have sprung up everywhere for millions of white parents who quite deliberately desire to evade racial desegregation. Those schools carefully take in a few selected non-whites, just enough to avoid the charge of racial exclusion, but those schools were clearly designed to avoid the court-ordered desegregation rulings for public schools of the recent past. Unless vouchers take away control over the admission and expulsion practices of private schools, racism and other civil rights violations will be subsidized by taxpayers.
I know that we all like to think that our own faith is a tolerant one, but any religious body that gains or wields political power is dangerous to outsiders to that faith and threatens greater abuse to its own followers because of its increased authority over them that vouchers could provide. Government-subsidized education can promote ethnic and religious intolerance.”

Special Need Students? "Tough!"

http://www.ncd.gov/newsroom/publications/vouchers.html

http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=1582

•  A 1998 report from the U.S. Department of Education found that 85% of large central city private schools surveyed by the U.S. Department of Education would "definitely or probably" not be willing to participate in a voucher program if they were required to accept "students with special needs such as learning disabilities, limited English proficiency, or low achievement."2
•  This is corroborated by experiences with the two largest voucher programs. In Cleveland, where the law does not require private schools to accept handicapped students or provide special education,3 voucher school operator David Brennan candidly wrote to Gov. Voinovich that "Numerous scholarship (voucher) recipients were discouraged from taking their scholarships to private schools with the full knowledge that none of the existing private schools will be able to handle a seriously handicapped child." An Ohio Department of Education spokeswoman recently commented that the voucher office didn't expressly discourage applications, but did inform parents that needed services may be unavailable. "Many Catholic schools are not equipped to handle handicapped children or do not offer the services they need," she said.4
•  In Milwaukee, the Legislative Audit Bureau's February 2000 audit of the voucher program notes that seven schools-just 8%-reported that they offered special education services.5 Elsewhere the LAB audit noted that the services most likely available are such lower cost services as those for children with speech, language or learning disabilities.6 This prompted the Department of Public Instruction to respond that "This means, in effect, that students with certain disabilities are denied a meaningful alternative to the Milwaukee Public Schools despite the intention of the Choice program to provide this opportunity to all eligible low-income children in the city."7 The audit found 171 voucher students who had been identified by the Milwaukee Public School district as having special education needs. "However," it noted, "the total of special needs pupils in the program is not known because participating schools are not required to identify and report pupils in need of special services or their levels of need."
•  Many Milwaukee voucher schools are forthright regarding their inability to accommodate students with special needs.8 For example, Harambee Community School states that it is "unable to service children with a learning disability, physical disability and emotionally disturbed" [sic].9 Emmaus Lutheran states that it cannot serve "CD [Cognitive Disabilities], LD [Learning Disabilities], ED [Emotional Disturbances], [and s]ome types of physically handicapped students."10 Gospel Lutheran "cannot serve wheelchair-bound students."11 Blessed Sacrament writes "We believe that students who are 2-3 years below grade level cannot be realistically brought up to grade level because we do not have a tutorial/learning center to accommodate their needs. Students who have severe emotional or behavioral problems need specific programs to assist them - we do not have a counselor or social worker."12
•  In 2001, Wisconsin State Senator Russ Decker (D-Schofield) filed a motion that would have required all Milwaukee private schools participating in the voucher program "to comply with the same statutory requirements as public or charter schools with regard to including pupils with disabilities in statewide and local educational agency-wide assessments…" as well as comply with open records and anti-discrimination laws applicable to public schools. That motion failed to get out of the state's Joint Finance Committee, which makes recommendations on the budget, on a party-line vote.13
•  Shortly after this motion failed to get out of the Committee, State Senate Democrats incorporated an anti-discrimination bill authored by Rep. Christine Sinicki into their budget package. If passed, these provisions would have required all schools funded with taxpayer dollars to follow the state's Open Records and Open Meetings Acts and to comply with statutes barring discrimination based on physical, mental, emotional or learning disability, race, gender, disability, religion, national origin, sexual orientation and more.14 "There is plenty of anecdotal evidence from parents whose children were turned away from private schools because they required special education," said Rep. Sinicki. Sinicki's provisions were omitted from the final budget package that was passed by the legislature.15
•  In Florida, Gov. Jeb Bush's A+ Plan voucher program has no requirement that students with special needs be accommodated in participating private schools.16 Under the separate, new program providing vouchers for students with disabilities, parents may opt to use a state voucher to place their child in a private school. Participating private schools, however, are not required to accommodate all applicants, nor are they required to hire teachers with special education qualifications of any kind, and - unlike private schools in the A+ Plan voucher program - these schools do not have to accept the state voucher as full payment of tuition, leaving no option for parents who are unable to pay the difference.17

I'm not just talking out my rear end here, guys...
« Last Edit: September 11, 2003, 10:36:51 AM by Kieran »

Offline Gadfly

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school vouchers
« Reply #197 on: September 11, 2003, 10:39:18 AM »
Kieren, why aren't you teaching kids to write instead of posting?  Isn't school in session now?

Not to be mean, just wondering.

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #198 on: September 11, 2003, 10:43:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
“Either religious freedom will be curbed by the state in religious schools if they receive public money, or there will be a danger to civil liberties from a public sanction and subsidy of religious authority. Remember, schooling is required by law of all children. Religious education, wherever it is done, is always a threat to someone’s civil rights if those rights are inconsistent with the religious beliefs or practices. Look at how so many religions have regarded women, free speech, the rights of teachers or students to dissent. There will be serious erosion of the First Amendment if vouchers are permitted."


I'm not just talking out my rear end here, guys...


Maybe you aren't but the article you quoted is.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Kieran

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school vouchers
« Reply #199 on: September 11, 2003, 10:44:53 AM »
Prep period, have some free time. Why aren't you working? ;)

Offline Gadfly

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« Reply #200 on: September 11, 2003, 10:52:20 AM »
Very little.

Offline miko2d

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school vouchers
« Reply #201 on: September 11, 2003, 11:45:59 AM »
fd ski: I thought they were for everyone, like "all the taxpayers" so that they had a choice with their kids education.
That would be free market.


 There are two distinct aspects in this matter. You have coercive confiscation of property from people under threat of violence - collecting taxes to pay for education. Nothing is being done about that.

 Then yoou have distribution and disposition of the looted property. That part can be done in a free-market way, even if the collection part remains coercive and there is no reason not to do that.

What you guys are describing is forced equal opprtunity program and being good republicans that you are, you should hate it instead of advocating it.

 I cannot speak for good republicans, not being a member, but we, conservatives do not hate  equal opprtunity program. What we hate is "equal opprtunity program".


midnight Target: I meant specific examples miko. And not "did it work for family 'A'?" Has it done a better job for the community?

 How do you separate the community from the people you count as members of that community? And who is entitled to evaluate the outcome if you do not rely on the judgement of people immediately affected to do so? Last time I checked, no community ever evolved a collective mind, so it must be some enlightened individual that you have in mind who can make such judgement.

Kieran: You don't believe losing dollars will have an impact on public schools?

 Most private schools accessible to people of poor an middle-income neighbourhoods have lower tuition per student than what's spent per student in public schools. Vouchers are always set to lower amount than per-student expense in eny voucher scheme. The more people take vouchers, the more money per pupil will be left in public school system.!
 Isn't that what you would want?

So you are going to make the school corporation, with even less dollars, bear the burden of transporting people further and further away. Hmmm....

 You would be amased how much efficiencies a private business can discover compared to the government monopoly. My friends' children attend private schools in Brooklyn that charge way less that public per-pupil expense and manage to bus children no problem while still staying profitable.


Quote
Since the government took over local schooling around 1940, black illiteracy has doubled and white illiteracy quadrupled, despite the fact that we spend three or four times as much relative money on schooling as we did before 1940. Today (2003), 40 percent of blacks and 17 percent of whites can't read at all. In 1940, 20 percent of blacks and 4 percent of whites were illiterate. This isn't the Land of the Free, it's the Land of the Ignorant.


 miko

Offline midnight Target

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school vouchers
« Reply #202 on: September 11, 2003, 02:49:40 PM »
Quote
midnight Target: I meant specific examples miko. And not "did it work for family 'A'?" Has it done a better job for the community?

How do you separate the community from the people you count as members of that community? And who is entitled to evaluate the outcome if you do not rely on the judgement of people immediately affected to do so? Last time I checked, no community ever evolved a collective mind, so it must be some enlightened individual that you have in mind who can make such judgement.


So you don't know of any voucher systems that have worked.

Got it.

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #203 on: September 11, 2003, 03:13:27 PM »
midnight Target: So you don't know of any voucher systems that have worked.
 Got it.


 Same lying "false assumption by dropping the context" method of argument that I come to expect of you.

 First, I did read about several successfull experiments with vouchers. Not being in education business, I did not feel it necessary to memorise them so that I could cite them on a moment's notice. I have enough work memorising hard data related to my area of expertise.
 Nevertheless, if I came home from my office and looked up my rederences, I would not have any problem presenting them.

 Second. I did not try to argue on the merits of perticular anecdotal cases which can be misinterpreted any which way by the likes of you. Surely, if I did not present multi-page description of the method of the study, you would just claim that the details I did not mention were not done. And if I did spend hours typing all the details, you would just ignore the post and waste my time.

 I wanted to make my case on purely theoretic basis. That's all. If I cannot provide exactly what you wanted, so what? I am not obliged to do you legwork for you.

 Certainly, if you realy cared to learn about such studies, you would not have a problem firing your google and looking them up or at least the references to them. It's not lik ethere is scarcity of voucher debate on teh Internet.

 miko

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #204 on: September 11, 2003, 03:16:25 PM »
Glad to help you practice your English miko... keep up the text walls of work.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #205 on: September 12, 2003, 08:42:07 AM »
nice dodge kieran... you say that I am assinine in my assertion that you just want things to stay the same till you retire but....  you still refuse to say how you would "fix" the unfixable... public schools..

you cite a friggin military academy as your example of exclusion in private schools  sheesh... next you will use trade schools (the accountant school is exclusionary to those who never took math)...  military academy ferchrissakes!

No... by keeping the dregs and coddling them the public schools have figgured out how to ruin it for everyone... plus... as a bonus... they still manage to drop out as many kids as is humanly possible while providing sub standard education at priemium costs.  More kids who start in private schools finish than with public schools... plus.... if you finish the 8th grade in private school you can drop pout and outperform a 12th grader in public school anyway.

to summarize.... you don't believe that there is anything wrong with public schools and they are as good as they can get (given the circumstances) with the possible exceptions that they could sure use more money and time off for "overworked" teachers.   you feel that your best arguement against the better performing private sector is to attack and use fear of religion or fear of exclussion even tho those things happen less in private than public schools (more religious controversy and higher dropouts in public schools).  

I wonder who you think you are helping?   Maybe you can teel me?  do you think that by teaching in public schools you are rescuing more or less problem kids than private?  if you were honest you would say less.   Is your finished product better or worse than private schools?  if you were honest...  
lazs

Offline Kieran

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school vouchers
« Reply #206 on: September 12, 2003, 10:23:35 AM »
Lazs, the english language only has so many words.

I know there isn't a shred of hope you can be convinced I am saying other than what you think I am, but what the heck, I'll try...

I will be 100% for vouchers when you or anyone else can prove to me:

1. the federal and state governments won't immediately slap mandates on these schools that in effect turn them into the new public schools;

2. these schools won't practice the type of exclusionary behavior that is precisely against the purpose of vouchers

It would be supreme irony if your granddaughter took her voucher and was rejected by every private school she attempted to enter- naw, that couldn't happen. Well, so long as she doesn't have any type of academic underperformance, learning diability, behavioral disorder, physical disability, criminal record, etc. Where would she go then, hmm? ;)

By the way, there is nothing wrong with a military academy analogy, because they are private schools. I could have as easily discussed the local parochial schools that have similarly stringent behavioral and academic (in addition to religious) restrictions.

If you consider the two points I've made, you will also see they are in direct conflict. I don't see how one can be resolved without excluding the other.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #207 on: September 14, 2003, 08:47:14 AM »
so you are saying that it is a bad idea to have vouchers cause there is a possibility that the private schools will suddenly become just as bad as the public schools are now?

You seem to be admitting that there is no hope for public schools and saying that we should just take it.   I mean... after all... if even private schools can't fix education.... why bother to do anything?   Let's all just drop the subject so kieran can go back to his nice cozy womb of academia and unions.
lazs

Offline Kieran

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school vouchers
« Reply #208 on: September 14, 2003, 05:59:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
so you are saying that it is a bad idea to have vouchers cause there is a possibility that the private schools will suddenly become just as bad as the public schools are now?

You seem to be admitting that there is no hope for public schools and saying that we should just take it.   I mean... after all... if even private schools can't fix education.... why bother to do anything?   Let's all just drop the subject so kieran can go back to his nice cozy womb of academia and unions.
lazs


Lazs, Lazs, Lazs...

A) I am not a union member
B) You cannot prove vouchers will work better than the current system (after federal and state mandates kick in)
C) I am not "admitting" anything, at least, not anymore than you are admitting vouchers can't work the way you think they will.

You seem to think the burden of proof lies with me... and worse, won't think about anything I have posted. If I have to prove how public schools can be fixed, at the very least YOU should prove how vouchers won't wind you up in the very same place, OR WORSE in a few years time. Seems fair to me.

All I have really attempted to point out all along is you fellows who believe vouchers are going to save education don't understand the whole picture, especially with regards to educational law. Your vouchers will remove the single most important advantage of private schools- exclusion. Once they can no longer exclude students they will become defacto public schools. What are you gonna do when the government forces your "private" school to take special education students, or won't allow your school to kick out underperformers or behavioral problems? Move to another "private" school? Good luck, the rules will be the same when you get there, too.

There it is in a nutshell. Until you can lobby enough votes in Congress to do away with a fair amount of student civil rights and re-interpret the 14th Amendment you are going to inevitably wind up with the same situation you are in now, because legally nothing else can happen. Don't take my word for it (as if!) look it up yourself. Look at "No Child Left Behind" legislation, or "Least Restrictive Environment" mandates. Do a combo search for "exclusion" and "students" and see what you find. Do another search for "schools" and "state money" and "restrictions"... use your imagination. You're going to see I'm right.

That's my argument. Now yours is "competition is good"... fine, but that competition has legal guidelines. Federal and state involvement is going to level the playing field, but not in the way you desire or intend. Prove me wrong though, I am always willing to admit I am wrong.

Offline BB Gun

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« Reply #209 on: September 15, 2003, 12:10:54 AM »
ummmm, kieran - why would new mandates kick in?

Check your GI bill - does the government force universities to do ungodly amounts of x,y or z because government money is paying for education at any number of private, public, religious, trade, technical, etc etc schools?  It sure doesn't look like it from a moderately quick perusal of the GI Bill website: http://www.gibill.va.gov/

While I'm not sure exactly how the GI bill works, I do know that all colleges certainly are not exclusionary.  If you got the money, and the grades, they'll take you.  Hell, even if you don't have the grades, if you've got the money, they'll work with you on the grades thing.  Sure, some are more picky than others, but that's always been true.  Has it hurt our university educational system?

I do agree that the danger for government meddling is there, but IIRC there have been court cases where the precedent was set that if the fedgov gave money/voucher to parents, and parents give money/voucher to x,y or z organization/school/etc - then it is not the same as fedgove giving money to organization, and cannot be seen as "supporting" said organization.

...hold on, searching....

AHA (thank god for google - http://www.rethinkingschools.org/special_reports/voucher_report/Box171.shtml http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/scotus_vouchers020627.html  )  

Apparently only one case so far.  Now - state constitutions can cause their own roadblocks (google for florida voucher program for details) but that is a state by state issue, and what may be true for your state, kieran, may not be for the others.

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