school vouchers

[Mickey1992]

Why should my tax dollars be spent to send a kid to a private school that I can not afford to send my own kids to?  Wouldn't the "the worst schools in America" be better off with the $10 Million instead?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,96563,00.html

Friday , September 05, 2003
 
WASHINGTON — The House narrowly approved private-school vouchers for poor District of Columbia students Friday, recharging a debate that has implications beyond the nation's capital.

The $10 million House plan, approved 205-203, would mark the first time the federal government has put aside public money for students to get private schooling. The Senate will soon consider a similar voucher measure for the District's schools, and President Bush has championed the idea.

[Rude]

Originally posted by Mickey1992
Why should my tax dollars be spent to send a kid to a private school that I can not afford to send my own kids to?  Wouldn't the "the worst schools in America" be better off with the $10 Million instead?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,96563,00.html

Friday , September 05, 2003
 
WASHINGTON — The House narrowly approved private-school vouchers for poor District of Columbia students Friday, recharging a debate that has implications beyond the nation's capital.

The $10 million House plan, approved 205-203, would mark the first time the federal government has put aside public money for students to get private schooling. The Senate will soon consider a similar voucher measure for the District's schools, and President Bush has championed the idea.

I think we've been tossin money at a broken system for far too long. A new approach will give opportunities to those serious about their childrens future as well as give notice to school boards across the country to get their act together.

Here locally in the press, teachers are bent out of shape about being tested themselves regarding their competency to teach specific subjects(it's that Bush guy who never does anything)

Public schools across the nation are sick....our children pay the price, not the administrators or the politicians.

BTW...don't feel badly about where your money goes....we homeschooled our four kids until last year, all the while paying the taxes which supported public schools.

[fd ski]

Public schools are sick because most of the grown population decided its more fun to watch TV then to teach their own kids.
Public education in piss poor countries all over the world suceeds in teaching well despite huge difference in money/pupil ratio because parents are INVOLVED in education. Sending kids to private schools doesn't change anything. And I don't know if i would want to have a kid go to school whose main motivation is "making profit for shareholders".

Percetion those days is that it's teacher's and school's job to get the information into kid's head and make it into a decent human being.

Well, guess what, it isn't.

it's teacher's job to provide the information and explain it once, assign the homework. It's school's job to provide the envirment for this to happend.

It's a PARENT'S job to make sure that kid does his/hers homework, all assignments, understands the matieral and is prepared.

Right now last link is failing cause parents are lazy.

[dfl8rms]

Originally posted by Rude
[BTW...don't feel badly about where your money goes....we homeschooled our four kids until last year, all the while paying the taxes which supported public schools.

We're homeschooling ours still (that's 4 currently with another 3 yet to be schooled).  At the average cost for our district of $6800 per pupil (not including the special referendums to pay for the ever growing schools) .  Meanwhile our home education costs less than 2k per year total.  So think of it this way, I'm saving our district taxpayers almost $25k per year and I still get to pay my taxes to keep the school running.

Did I mention that the school district is now asking for an additional $500 per year per student from the district tax payers.  Seems like they needed an extra 5 specialists to help teach the teachers and oversee them.  Every increase they've asked for to date has not added additional classroom teachers, its been
  1. new principal(s) -- how many do you really need?
  2. new administrative assistants for item #1
  3. new facility staff
  4. cost to cover running the actual facility
  5. A/C updates to the schools
  ...


So anything that will curb the cost of school administration is welcomed.  I don't mind paying for more in classroom teachers, but when I keep seeing more and more administration and no net new teachers, I am skeptical.

Vouchers: I like the idea if it helps reform public education system by bringing in good old fashioned competition.  Take payers win, kids win because they are actually being taught, parents win because they can direct their child's education.  The only loosers in this situation is the NEA and other large teacher lobbies because they have to now show competency.

[AKIron]

Originally posted by Mickey1992
Why should my tax dollars be spent to send a kid to a private school that I can not afford to send my own kids to?

That's kinda the whole point of the vouchers. To help those that  can't afford private schools the possibility of a private school. Seems kinda obvious to me, something I'm missing?

[Rude]

Originally posted by fd ski
Public schools are sick because most of the grown population decided its more fun to watch TV then to teach their own kids.
Public education in piss poor countries all over the world suceeds in teaching well despite huge difference in money/pupil ratio because parents are INVOLVED in education. Sending kids to private schools doesn't change anything. And I don't know if i would want to have a kid go to school whose main motivation is "making profit for shareholders".

Percetion those days is that it's teacher's and school's job to get the information into kid's head and make it into a decent human being.

Well, guess what, it isn't.

it's teacher's job to provide the information and explain it once, assign the homework. It's school's job to provide the envirment for this to happend.

It's a PARENT'S job to make sure that kid does his/hers homework, all assignments, understands the matieral and is prepared.

Right now last link is failing cause parents are lazy.

I couldn't agree with you more FD...parents bear the responsibility for the upbringing of their children...at least that's how my wifey and I parent our four kids.

In the face of that being said, it's even more simplistic to think that more money will make things better.

Now FD...private schools do tend to produce better students....they hold students accountable, the curriculums are superior to that of public schools and the parents tend to be educated who send their children there. For those reasons, private school education has met with more success in the US.

[Wanker]

Originally posted by fd ski
Public schools are sick because most of the grown population decided its more fun to watch TV then to teach their own kids.
Public education in piss poor countries all over the world suceeds in teaching well despite huge difference in money/pupil ratio because parents are INVOLVED in education. Sending kids to private schools doesn't change anything. And I don't know if i would want to have a kid go to school whose main motivation is "making profit for shareholders".

Percetion those days is that it's teacher's and school's job to get the information into kid's head and make it into a decent human being.

Well, guess what, it isn't.

it's teacher's job to provide the information and explain it once, assign the homework. It's school's job to provide the envirment for this to happend.

It's a PARENT'S job to make sure that kid does his/hers homework, all assignments, understands the matieral and is prepared.

Right now last link is failing cause parents are lazy.

Exactly.

Rude, I commend you on caring enough about your kids' education to be very involved, but IMO your animosity towards teachers is misplaced and influenced by the reactionary right.

fd-ski speaks the truth. I was a teacher for 5 years in the public schools, and I know for a fact that every kid who wanted to learn and had caring parents, learned a ton.

Don't blame the teachers for the failings of a generation of disconnected parents. Parents expect teachers to somehow force their kids to learn by magic, without working at it at home, and without being respectful during school. That is nonsense.

As a highly skilled teacher in my profession,  I welcome extensive testing of all teachers. Those who pass the tests should be recognized as being superior in their subject and paid on a par with other professions.

Rude, the "system" may be broken, but the teachers sure aren't.

[fd ski]

yes Rude, but benefits you describe only occur in current situation with mostly public schools and very few, and very expensive private schools.

Let me give you a sceanrio here:
All private schools, all vouchers, so on so fourth.
First item of competition: PRICE. I know you will argue till you are blue in the face that quality of education will be a detemining factor, but fact remains that right mix of MARKETING and PRICING always wins. Want an example ? Fighter Ace vs AH - look at populations between the games. Same applies to all things which are marketed.

So say we have two schools: They both have same ammount of money.
One invests in training better teachers, other hires good PR agency and does a huge campaign. It hires worst teachers to cut costs and convinces everyone in town that "we are better then the other school". Net result is that next year, the school with better teachers has to do very much the same else it will go out of business. Price war proceeds, teacher salaries get slashed. Can you say videoconference lecuture over teh internet from outsourced indian teacher ?

There are some things that are so important and unmeasurable that they shouldn't be a subject to "free market" practices:
education and healthcare.
As it stands our school system has a potential to do great, but parents and silly laws are preventing that from happening.
Opening the system up to mega corporations and CEOs crunching "number of chalks/classroom vs profit" ratios isn't going to fix the very core of the system. As long as tax payers are paying for schools - parents won't care.

The only answer is to engage parents. And the only way i see at this point to make that happend: Charge them directly.
Leave public schools, and charge parents tuition based on their kid's grades. Better grade - lower tuition.
When mommy and daddy get slapped with 3000$ a year bill because Johnny is a fricking moron and nobody paid any attention to his schoolwork, maybe they will change their approach.

[Wanker]

Damn Bart, I never realized how smart you were until you spoke on this subject.

[eskimo2]

I used to be a teacher at a high-risk public school.  Our test scores and student performance were pathetic (8-35%ile depending on the grade and test).  I now am a teacher at a Catholic private school.  .  Our test scores and student performance are fantastic (above 90%ile in all grades and subjects).

Most parents at my old school had jail experience, few were educated, many were on welfare, some were drug dealers or in gangs.  The majority of them didn’t express much interest in their children’s education (600 kids, 4 parents on the PTA).  Brothers and sisters in large “families” sometimes had no common fathers.  
Every class had a bunch of special-ed kids.

At my new school parents are typically doctors, lawyers, computer techs, etc.  Most are very well educated.  The vast majority of them express much interest in their children’s education.   Very few parents are not married.  Most attend church.
Our school is not required to accept special-ed students.

Teachers at my old school were no less; educated, hard working or professional than the Catholic-school teachers who I work with now.

The red-tape and BS paperwork that I was required to do as a public school teacher was five fold what we do in my Catholic school.  Politicians are largely responsible for this.
Many of the problem students in my old school would be quickly booted out of my new school, that’s a very convenient (and effective) way to handle “problems”.  Public schools don’t have that luxury.  

I think its funny how people compare public to private schools.  

eskimo

[Wanker]

The only loosers in this situation is the NEA and other large teacher lobbies because they have to now show competency.

Sad, yet another ignorant and misguided attack on teachers. Even from my own squadmate!

And you guys call yourselves christians?!


Look, I'll say it again, and I'll keep on saying it until you get it:
Most teachers in this country are highly educated and motivated. They are dedicated to their students, and are self-sacrificing to a fault. All they ask for in return is to be respected and paid a "fair and balanced" salary, commensurate with their skill.

Test all the teachers. Test them long and hard. Throw out the minority who fail the tests. The remaining professionals who have proven their abilities should be paid, and paid handsomely.

Those of you who have never taught in the public schools have no idea what teachers go up against on a daily basis.

I do. If you ask nice and offer to buy me a beer, I'd be glad to educate you.....that is, if you're willing to learn.

John Dahlen
B.S. Music Education
University of Minnesota
1989

[Kevin14]

By reading this thread, it seems to me you guys have this mind-set.  

Public Schools: They all suck, students are stupid, teachers are terrible, and all parents are divorced.  

Private Schools: Superb teaching, students are fantastic, teachers are brilliant, and parents are happily married.  

Lol, I love the thing someone said about students in private schools are on average smarter.  Well la de frickin' da.  That's suprising seeing as how they have to pass a difficult test to enter it...

But of course, there are some exceptions in public schools.  One major one being that not all of them are smack-dab in the middle of cities, as some of you believe.  And some teachers are absolutely exceptional, like one of my elementary teachers, and one of my ninth-grade teachers.  

My $0.02

[AKIron]

Originally posted by banana
Most teachers in this country are highly educated and motivated. They are dedicated to their students, and are self-sacrificing to a fault.

That certainly wasn't my experience through 12 years of public school. I have a sister and a brother-in-law that are both teachers and would disagree with you too.

I might agree if you said many but not most.

[Wanker]

Originally posted by AKIron
That certainly wasn't my experience through 12 years of public school. I have a sister and a brother-in-law that are both teachers and would disagree with you too.

I might agree if you said many but not most.

Then it's your state's problem. Minnesota is one of the best states in the nation to get a solid public school education in.

Minnesotan's as a whole value education as a top priority, and hence we pay more in taxes to get that education. If the people in your state don't have their priorities in order, that's their business.

AKIron, not talking about you or your situation, but in general, I've heard that argument before. "The teacher didn't like me" or "It's the teacher's fault I didn't get an A".

Bull.

There is something called personal accountability, something which is sadly lacking in today's society. Ask any Rebulican, they'll agree with me. But when it comes to education, they conveniently forget this, and instead play the blame game against teachers.

[Raubvogel]

You want to see pathetic public schools? Spend a few years in Hawaii. My kids are not stupid by any means, but they were both struggling in the schools there. I would have loved to have had the opportunity to send them to a private school. When we moved to Oklahoma my daughter's grades went from C's and D's to A's and B's the very next semester. The following semester she made the Honor Roll and has stayed there. Not all public school systems are horrible, but the one's that are should be held accountable. I agree that parents are a very key ingredient to a child's success in school, but it still boils down to having a decent school system to make it all work.