Author Topic: Top 12 Reasons Jug was best WWII fighter  (Read 3180 times)

Offline YUCCA

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Top Scoring Aces Of the ETO
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2003, 04:19:54 PM »
the top scoring aces of the ETO (Just for kicks :) :

Name Kills Medals Unit Plane
Francis "Gabby" Gabreski 28.0 DSC 56FG P-47  
Robert S. Johnson 27.0 DSC 56FG P-47
David C. Schilling 22.5 DSC 56FG P-47
Fred J. Christensen 21.5 DSC 56FG P-47
Walker M. 'Bud' Mahurin 20.8 SS 56FG P-47
Duane W. Beeson 19.3 DSC 4FG P-47
Glenn E. Duncan 19.0 DFC 353FG P-47
Walter C. Beckham 18.0 - 353FG P-47
Col. Hubert 'Hub' Zemke 17.8 - 56FG P-47
Don Blakeslee 15.5 DFC 4FG P-51
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh look at all those 56FG JUGS! hehe

Offline -ammo-

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Top 12 Reasons Jug was best WWII fighter
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2003, 04:22:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FUNKED1
I think the Spitfire was better than anything the US fielded as far as a pure fighter.  As Gabreski told our squad once, "It was a FIGHTER FIGHTER."
:D


On the same day, he told me the P-47 was the best Fighter AC he had flown abandoning the sabre, of course.  So, he was boosting your ego maybe?:D
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Offline FUNKED1

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Top 12 Reasons Jug was best WWII fighter
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2003, 04:23:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I always get a kick out of the arm chair aces that read comments from a real life WW2 pilot that is talking from his combat experience in whatever plane and then dismiss the WW2 vets comments out of hand.


ack-ack


The problem is that the vets' comments almost always contradict each other in some way, and often contradict scientific measurement of the abilities of the airplanes in question.  

My favorite one is when they say something like "I never met an enemy plane that my XXXX couldn't handle."

Of course they didn't.  If they did, they wouldn't be here to tell the story, would they?  :)

Offline YUCCA

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Top 12 Reasons Jug was best WWII fighter
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2003, 04:26:43 PM »
Well, some of them like gabby became POW's :)  But then again he ran outta gas, wasn't shot down lol :)

Offline FUNKED1

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Top 12 Reasons Jug was best WWII fighter
« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2003, 04:42:09 PM »
Actually Gabby struck his prop on the ground while vulching a Kraut airfield.  :)

Offline AHGOD

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Top 12 Reasons Jug was best WWII fighter
« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2003, 04:53:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FUNKED1
Actually Gabby struck his prop on the ground while vulching a Kraut airfield.  :)


PC please it is base suppresion.

Offline davidpt40

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Top 12 Reasons Jug was best WWII fighter
« Reply #36 on: September 11, 2003, 08:22:05 PM »
Quote
Top Scoring Aces Of the ETO
the top scoring aces of the ETO (Just for kicks  :

Name Kills Medals Unit Plane
Francis "Gabby" Gabreski 28.0 DSC 56FG P-47
Robert S. Johnson 27.0 DSC 56FG P-47
David C. Schilling 22.5 DSC 56FG P-47
Fred J. Christensen 21.5 DSC 56FG P-47
Walker M. 'Bud' Mahurin 20.8 SS 56FG P-47
Duane W. Beeson 19.3 DSC 4FG P-47
Glenn E. Duncan 19.0 DFC 353FG P-47
Walter C. Beckham 18.0 - 353FG P-47
Col. Hubert 'Hub' Zemke 17.8 - 56FG P-47
Don Blakeslee 15.5 DFC 4FG P-51
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh look at all those 56FG JUGS! hehe



Please...where is Major Preddys name?  I think this little 'cooking of the books' qualifies you as a liar.

Offline YUCCA

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Top 12 Reasons Jug was best WWII fighter
« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2003, 08:48:50 PM »
Was copy and pasted lol.  So dont get your freggin panties up in a bunch.

Offline Sancho

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Top 12 Reasons Jug was best WWII fighter
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2003, 09:30:59 PM »
the list is incomplete. Initially Yucca posted the list on the squad list and I thought it looked odd until I realized it was supposed to be a list of top P-47 aces --for some reason there was a single P-51 in the list.  For a more complete list of US ETO aces including the top P-51 boys like Preddy and Meyer, check here.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Top 12 Reasons Jug was best WWII fighter
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2003, 11:32:26 PM »
On that list there is one little misconception.  It shows that Robin Olds had 12 kills in the P-51 when almost half of his kills were in the P-38 before the 479th switched over to the P-51.



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Offline Widewing

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Top 12 Reasons Jug was best WWII fighter
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2003, 11:53:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by davidpt40
Please...where is Major Preddys name?  I think this little 'cooking of the books' qualifies you as a liar.


But don't overlook the obvious fact that by your low-class reply you risk qualifying as a love muffin.

Clearly, the list is incomplete. However, I see no evidence that there was any intent to deceive.

Besides, Beeson flew the P-47 and P-51
Zemke flew the P-47, then the P-38 and finally the P-51.

Preddy scored well, but he was far from the top of the list in the raw talent department. In fact, during his 7 month combat tour with the 49th FG in the SWPA, he did miserably. Guys who flew with him prior to his mid-air wreck thought him sub-par. He certainly got it together, but he suffered thru a prolonged period of development as a fighter pilot. On the other end of the scale, we have Robert Johnson, of whom Zemke said; "Johnson was the most talented fighter pilot I ever saw, and I saw most of them."

In their massive reference work  "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces. Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.

After the war, Luftwaffe historians indicated that Johnson may have shot down as many as 32 German fighters. Johnson flew 91 combat missions. On those missions, he encountered German fighters 43 times. In 36 of the 43 encounters, Johnson fired his guns at the enemy. A result of those 36 missions where he fired on German fighters, 37 aircraft were hit; with as few as 27 or as many as 32 going down. I knew Bob Johnson and had many long conversations with him.

I also knew Gabreski, although not very well. He lived just a few minutes from my home, and I often bumped into him shopping or on the road where his vanity license plate "T Bolt" gave him away.
Gabby was a highly skilled fighter pilot, but he needed 26 missions in the Spitfire and 193 more in the P-47 to exceed Johnson's score by one.

In my opinion, the two most talented fighter pilots in the USAAF were Johnson and George Welch.

As to the best USAAF fighter of WWII, I lean towards the P-47 too. Above 25,000 feet (and that's where the bulk of combat took place prior to D-Day), the P-47 was superior to the Mustang. Below 25k and lower, the P-51 had an increasing edge. But, understand that the P-47 was DESIGNED for high altitude combat, with a critical altitude of 32,000 feet. Up there, the Luftwaffe had nothing to compare with the Jug until very late in the war. 32k was far above the Mustang's best altitude as well.
As a fighter-bomber, the Jug was superior to the P-51 in lifting ability, strafing and durability (by a lot in the last category). Even in the area of range the P-47 would eventually out-class the P-51D with the ultra long-range P-47N (it had a combat radius 150 miles greater than the Mustang). As a demonstration of the P-47N's range, one was flown from Republic field on Long Island to Eglin Field in Florida, whereupon it turned around and flew back again, all non-stop.

The P-38 first took the war to the Luftwaffe in the west, and the P-51 delivered the death blow. However, it was the P-47 that broke the back of the Luftwaffe. It was 700+ Jugs flying as far as the Rhine that literally drove the Luftwaffe back into the relative safety of Germany.

Widewing
« Last Edit: September 12, 2003, 12:51:41 AM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Sancho

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Top 12 Reasons Jug was best WWII fighter
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2003, 01:00:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
As a demonstration of the P-47N's range, one was flown from Republic field on Long Island to Eglin Field in Florida, whereupon it turned around and flew back again, all non-stop.  


I remember reading something like that in the Bodie book.  Unfortunately it's still packed up in a box from my move so I can't check it... as I recall though the P-47 flew down to florida, engaged in mock combat with a P-38, then flew back to New York all in one sortie.  That feat was probably equalled more than a few times out in the western Pacific in 1945.

Offline davidpt40

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Top 12 Reasons Jug was best WWII fighter
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2003, 03:05:54 AM »
What are you talking about Widewing?  That data has obviously been altered to make the P-47 look like a much better fighter.

And what was the point of your big long post?  I think you just wanted to tell everyone about how you lived by a P-47 pilot.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Top 12 Reasons Jug was best WWII fighter
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2003, 03:21:52 AM »
The data is easy to verify and no matter how you want to deny it, Widewing's data has always been 100% spot on.  And as for the pilot thing, I'm sure he was just proving the point that while G.Preddy might have been a good stick, he was hardly the best one by far or even up in the top #5.  Of course we all know that the #1 and #2 slots are occupied by P-38 pilots.



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Offline Furball

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Top 12 Reasons Jug was best WWII fighter
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2003, 04:00:54 AM »
I don't like P-47's.

(edit : it was "i dont like jugs"  but just realised how bad that looked. :D)
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