Top 12 Reasons Jug was best WWII fighter

[davidpt40]

while G.Preddy might have been a good stick, he was hardly the best one by far or even up in the top #5.

He had 26.5 kills.  The data was for the top scoring aces of the European Theatre of Operations.  That would put him in the #3 position right under Johnson.

[Ack-Ack]

What a dramatic difference between the two operational theaters.  In the ETO, the P-51 and P-47 were flown by the majority of the aces for the USAAF, while in the PTO, the majority of the USAAF aces flew the P-38 (20) with the P-40 in distant second with 8 aces.  There were only 3 P-51 and 2 P-47 aces (to be fair, the top P-47 ace had 22 kills, while the top P-51 ace only had 18.25 kills, of which 10 of them were in the P-40 with the AVG before the pilot transitioned to the P-51 with the USAAF)

Of course I don't have to point out that the two top US aces of all time flew that weird plane with two engines.


ack-ack

[TimRas]

These lists of top scoring pilots and their mounts has nothing to do with which was the best plane. The top scoring ace with US fighter was Alexander Pokryshkin, with 59 victories, 48 of those in P-39. Does this make the Airacobra the best American fighter ?. Does Hartmanns 352 kills mean that the Bf109 was about ten times better than any US plane ?

[Xjazz]

Concerning the figures, The Best WW2 Fighter is this

[Widewing]

Originally posted by davidpt40
What are you talking about Widewing?  That data has obviously been altered to make the P-47 look like a much better fighter.

And what was the point of your big long post?  I think you just wanted to tell everyone about how you lived by a P-47 pilot.

Sigh....

I suppose that you didn't consider that the list was taken from some incomplete source. You could have corrected it without calling the fellow a liar. Bad form.

David, I have been writing about WWII aviation and interviewing pilots for 20 years. I can count many of them as friends, including several of the surviving AVG pilots and ground crew. That said, my career in Naval Aviation resulted in over 2,300 hours of flight time and 332 traps. Having been around the block several times, I always find it amusing at the slings and arrows fired by guys who haven't even gotten out of the driveway yet.

So far I have seen several guys criticize the pilot mentioned in the first post as not knowing what he's talking about. That from a bunch of PC pilots! It's beyond laughable.


Now, who were the top aces and what did they fly?

Top 65 U.S. Aces:
Name/#kills/Plane type(s)

Richard I. Bong                     40    P-38            
Thomas B. McGuire Jr.               38    P-38        
David McCampbell                    34    F6F        
Francis S. Gabreski                 28    P-47
Robert S. Johnson                   28    P-47
Charles H. MacDonald                27    P-38        
George E. Preddy Jr.                26.83 P-47/P-51        
Joseph Jacob Foss                   26    F4F        
Lance C. Wade                       25    Spitfire              
Robert Murray Hanson                25    F4U        
Gregory Boyington                   24    F4U        
John C. Meyer                       24    P-47/P-51
Cecil E. Harris                     24    F6F        
Eugene A. Valencia                  23    F6F        
Ray S. Wetmore                      22.59 P-47/P-51        
David C. Schilling                  22.5  P-47        
Gerald R. Johnson                   22    P-40/P-47/P-38        
Jay T. Robbins                      22    P-38        
Neel E. Kearby                      22    P-47        
Fred J. Christensen                 21.5  P-47        
John J. Voll                        21    P-38/P-51        
Kenneth A. Walsh                    21    F6F        
Walker M. Mahurin                   20.75 P-47
Donald N. Aldrich                   20    F4U        
Robert B. Westbrook                 20    P-38        
Thomas J. Lynch                     20    P-38        
Dominic S. Gentile                  19.83 P-47/P-51        
Duane W. Beeson                     19.33 P-47/P-51        
Alexander Vraciu                    19    F6F        
Cornelius N. Nooy                   19    F6F        
Glenn E. Duncan                     19    P-47        
John L. Smith                       19    F4F          
Patrick D. Fleming                  19    F6F        
Glenn T. Eagleston                  18.5  P-47/P-51
Charles H. Older                    18.5  P-40/P-51        
Leonard K. Carson                   18.5  P-47        
Marion Eugene Carl                  18.5  F4F/F4U        
Wilbur J. Thomas                    18.5  F4U        
Herschel H. Green                   18    P-47/P-51        
John C. Herbst                      18    P-47/P-51        
Walter C. Beckham                   18    P-47        
Hubert Zemke                        17.75 P-38/P-47/P-51        
John B. England                     17.5  P-51        
William N. Reed                     17.5  F6F        
David L. Hill                       17.25 P-40/P-51        
John F. Thornell Jr.                17.25 P-51        
Henry William Brown                 17.2  P-51?        
Charles R. Stimpson                 17    F4F/F6F        
Gerald W. Johnson                   17    P-47        
Ira C. Kepford                      17    F4U        
James S. Varnell Jr.                17    P-51        
Robert W. Foy                       17    P-51        
Ralph K. Hofer                      16.5  P-47/P-51        
John T. Godfrey                     16.33 P-47/P-51        
Clarence E. Anderson                16.25 P-51        
Bill Harris                         16    P-38          
Douglas Baker                       16    F6F        
George S. Welch                     16     P-38/P-39/P-40        
William D. Dunham                   16     P-47
William T. Whisner                  15.5   P-51          
Donald J.M. Blakeslee               15.5   P-47/P-51        
Donald M. Beerbower                 15.5   P-51        
James E. Swett                      15.5   F4F/F4U        
Richard A. Peterson                 15.5   P-51        
Robert H. Neale                     15.5   P-40        

My regards,

Widewing

[davidpt40]

Roger that.  I was just a bit perturbed to see the highest scoring P-51 pilot left out of a list of aces in the ETO.  

And I noticed at least one error your data Widewing.  According to my sources, Gregory Boyington was credited with at least 26 kills.

Then you have to take into account the confounders-  The P51 was introduced quite a bit later than the P47.  There were less German aircraft flying, tactics were changing, and some pilots already had kills from flying previous model aircraft.

The only real way to get an accurate outlook is to look at the air to air missions of P47s and P51s at a time when they were both in service.

[Kaz]

Top 65 U.S. Aces:
Name/#kills/Plane type(s)

Richard I. Bong 40 P-38
Thomas B. McGuire Jr. 38 P-38
David McCampbell 34 F6F
Francis S. Gabreski 28 P-47
Robert S. Johnson 28 P-47

Wow, I do believe that this is the first time that I've seen this guy mentioned. I certainly have never heard of him and yet he's #3 flying the F6F exclusively?

Good stuff Widewing
Learning stuff every day.

[HoHun]

Hi guys,

Wrong approach everyone! :-)

I agree that Rip Collins' points aren't entirely conclusive, but we shouldn't really get into mud-slugging here.

Instead, we should think of some good questions for Rip that Yucca might forward to him! I'd imagine Rip would appreciate the interest and perhaps provide more insights on the P-47 vs. P-51 comparison (if we're lucky :-)

Yucca, thanks for the comparison! Though Rip didn't convince me (yet), it's always highly interesting to hear the opinion of a veteran!

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by davidpt40
The only real way to get an accurate outlook is to look at the air to air missions of P47s and P51s at a time when they were both in service.

Difficult to do.  In ETO, the P51B didn't really come into play in any numbers until the very end of the critical period October 43 - April 44.  I'm with those who say that, by then, the outcome of the air war had been decided by the p47 groups.

- oldman

[gripen]

Hm... I don't know if many P-47 pilots of the 8th AF ever flew V-1650-3 powered P-51B, mostly they flew V-1650-7 powered P-51D. With V-1650-3 the P-51B compares very favourably with  P-47D at high altitude.

About "outcome of the Air War" it should be noted that despite all those P-47 groups the 8th AF suffered untolerable losses until fighters which were up to the task arrived.

gripen

[YUCCA]

I was copy and pasting the top JUG ACES.  I accidently copied a 51.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by davidpt40
Roger that.  I was just a bit perturbed to see the highest scoring P-51 pilot left out of a list of aces in the ETO.  

And I noticed at least one error your data Widewing.  According to my sources, Gregory Boyington was credited with at least 26 kills.

No error. I am discounting 2 victories claimed by Boyington when he flew with the AVG. Why? Because AVG records do not show them. AVG pilots stated flatly that he didn't get them and this was backed up by Chennault himself. Boyington claimed to have left the AVG an ace with 5.5 kills. The fact was he only had 3.5. But then again, Boyington was notorious for stretching the truth. Especially when he was trying to get back into the Marine Corps after being dishonorably discharged from the AVG (because he quit during war-time).

My regards,

Widewing

[F4UDOA]

Widewing,

A couple of things about Boyington.

1. He "quit" the AVG because they were forcing him into flying for the Army Air Corps. He was a Commisioned Marine and hated Channault.

2. The AVG was the Volenteer corps. How can you be dishonerable discharged? Also he had a dispute with the AVG over what he was paid for kills ($500 each was promised). So his number never matched the AVG but the Marines have honered that number until today.

Also his behavior on the ground is not to be mistaken for his skill in the air. Nobody ever doubted his ability as a fighter pilot.

Also

Ken Walsh 21 kills was a F4U pilot not a F6F pilot.

IMHO pilots like Bong, McGuire and McCampbell benifited greatly by getting most of there kills in 1944 or later. I give pilots like Joe Foss far more credit for scoring the majority of their kills when the Japanese could still put quality pilots in the air in numbers.

This point is proven by K/D of various A/C.

For instance the F6F had a 19 to 1 K/D. It's the best right? Wrong.

The FM-2 had a K/D of 32 to 1 while the F4F had a 6 to 1 K/D.

Why? Because the F4F faced far tougher oppsition despite facing lower performance Japanese aircraft.

I have the Navy Docs to prove it.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Kaz
Top 65 U.S. Aces:
Name/#kills/Plane type(s)

Richard I. Bong 40 P-38
Thomas B. McGuire Jr. 38 P-38
David McCampbell 34 F6F
Francis S. Gabreski 28 P-47
Robert S. Johnson 28 P-47

Wow, I do believe that this is the first time that I've seen this guy mentioned. I certainly have never heard of him and yet he's #3 flying the F6F exclusively?

Good stuff Widewing
Learning stuff every day.

McCampbell also holds the record for the most kills during a single sortie; 9.

My regards,

Widewing

[Widewing]

Originally posted by F4UDOA
Widewing,

A couple of things about Boyington.

1. He "quit" the AVG because they were forcing him into flying for the Army Air Corps. He was a Commisioned Marine and hated Channault.

2. The AVG was the Volenteer corps. How can you be dishonerable discharged? Also he had a dispute with the AVG over what he was paid for kills ($500 each was promised). So his number never matched the AVG but the Marines have honered that number until today.

Also his behavior on the ground is not to be mistaken for his skill in the air. Nobody ever doubted his ability as a fighter pilot.      

The reasons for Boyington quitting the AVG are well known and had nothing to do with flying for the USAAF. For starters, the USAAF didn't absorb the AVG until July 4, 1942. Boyington was doing check rides in repaired Tomahawks while his knees healed (he fell off a cliff during a drunken bender) and was annoyed that Chennault wouldn't let him back on combat status. So, in April of '42 he announced that he was leaving and talked his way onto a CNAC C-47 bound for India. Once it was known he had left, he was classified as a deserter and dishonorably discharged from the AVG (which was a unit in the Chinese Air Force).  

Note that branches of the U.S. military are volunteer organizations. Yet, desertion will result in a dishonorable discharge and probably brig time.

Boyington hated Chennault because he was afraid of Chennault, both as his commander and because Chennault was a hell of a lot tougher than Boyington and Boyington knew it. Chennault didn't tolerate Boyington's drunkeness or rude behavior. He would not put up with Boyington's disregard for regulations and his habit of ignoring those in authority, both on the ground and in the air. In sum, Chennault did something that the Marine Corps never really managed to do; he held Boyington in complete check. Boyington could not deal with that, so he quit.

By the way, Bruce Gamble lowers Boyington's score even futher than I do. Bruce allows for just 23 kills, including only 3 with the AVG. Two additional kills credited to Boyington after the war are completely unsubstantiated.

My regards,

Widewing