Fighters' K/D in Beta 2

[Hristo]

Although available to everyone, I took liberty to post this data here, as of Nov. 30th,  GMT 8:30 AM.


Plane - K/D ratio


Allied planes

La 5FN     -   1.52
P 51D      -   1.14
Spit IX    -   1.06


Axis planes

Fw 190A-8  -   1.28
George     -   1.25
109G-10    -   0.81
c.205      -   0.80


Please post your opinions, just for the sake of the discussion.

If anyone is interested, here are mine:

All Allied fighters have K/D ratio higher than 1, while Axis is losing the war.

My personal congratulations on all La pilots out there. You are very few, but you seem to have mastered the plane indeed. La is obviously flown by experts, rather than newbies who try it once or twice, but end up with no fuel fast   Moreover, it is not famous from any movies or war propaganda (of western type, of course), and it is mostly underestimated.

Next, there is the best streak machine IMHO. Its only drawback it that it is too famous and thus attracts many newbies who drop its K/D ratio significantly. Smart flown P 51D is unstoppable. Maybe after guns and FM revision we see a change.

Spit has quite good K/D, considering it is used mostly as base defence fighter, against vulchers and without advantage. Its greatest ally is friendly ack. However, there are also great pilots in Spit, so please don't think I have anything against Spit pilots.


Kurt Tank's brainchild has proven a good design indeed. 190's greatest quality are very cautious pilots, however, along with opponents who merrily lose all their energy and follow 190s to their bases just to turn with them. And 190 has some aces up in its sleeve   190 pilots gather valuable experience until they get the Dora. Then watch out, P 51D, you wont't run away so often.

George is quite better than I would expect, considering I always see it low and slow, and usually used in base defence.

Next, there is a real loser. Plane of aces can't find its way to success. It is burdened by most drawbacks you can find, historical and unhistorical.

Macchi is quite an unknown plane to many, and its design is not up to par with the late war monsters.


[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 11-30-1999).]

[Dinger]

Interesting, and useful that you point out the "pilot factor" -- where a few good La-5 pilots, for example, can make that plane shine, and a bunch of p-51 newbies can have a negative effect.  Perhaps it would be interesting therefore to see the numbers of sorties in each case.
Recall too that this is a beta, and additional factors come into play:
For example, I do try my hand at testing stuff.  Although I don't know what's going to be done with the ground model, I've been interested in why sometimes planes will spin in and hit the ground without exploding.  Or why you can sometimes blow a landing and bounce of your cockpit.  I must have run about 40 sorties, all in c.205s, testing the "Cockpit" bounce alone.  (found out that the runways have different collision models than the rest.  For the record, go full throttle and full flaps.  Let the macchi drift off the runway.  at 105-110 mph, pull up, and into a stall, leaving gear down. boing!).  Ok, I should have done it offline, but it is a beta, and I like company more than I do my score.
Another factor affecting the macchi is the lethal tailwheel.  A plane that tends to explode on landings will have more deaths than the others.  Of course, it is a small A/C.
Size probably has something to do with it too.  The 109 and 205 are not big planes, and are less likely to absorb punishment and keep flying.
It's interesting, isn't it, that the planes with the biggest guns get the highest K/D?

[janneh]

"It's interesting, isn't it, that the planes with the biggest guns get the highest K/D?"

I must disagree as 205 & 109 has quite powerfull cannons and they both has bad K/D,
if I understood Your message right.

Little off topic, but what comes to C205's stalling character, it's fatal.
I've crashed my 205 many times after stalling without recovery, could be just me, but I found it really bad.
Yes, I've managed to recover from a stall too, but it takes lots of altitude to do it.

Spit has good K/D regardless of being such a dweeb plane   This states that there's group of experts of spits and much much more beginners with less than average skills.


I agree with Hristo what comes to LA-5. It has the best K/D although you rarely see it up there. It won't take many hits to explode and this clearly shows that LA-5 pilots are good ones.

Quite surprise 109's really bad K/D.Same level as macchi's. It should be somewhat same as 190A-8's as they both should use mostly BnZ technique. Perhaps it easily to involve TnB's with 109, who knows...

Just my thoughts.

[leonid]

janneh you stated:
 

It won't take many hits to explode and this clearly shows that LA-5 pilots are good ones.

Actually, the La-5FN is really a tough aircraft, able to take quite a beating and still fly home.  I think Wardog can attest to that  

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129 IAP VVS RKKA

[Hristo]

Janneh, here's a longer version why I consider 109G-10 an unsuccessful Arena plane.

Right now it lacks some 15-20% of power, which puts it roughly on par with G-6, or even lower. And many 109 pilots don't know it (I learned this hard way in 0.39 and am still recovering from it). P 51D caught me in spiral climb no problem, as well as matched my acceleration after we crossed paths on tree top level. I am also glad La is not flown so often. Meet one on the deck and you should really cry for help. TnB is never an option, and now it is even more dangerous. Those P 51D fly with 25% fuel, and it is amazing what this does to their TnB qualities.

Generally, late model 109s greatest disadvantage is compression and weak guns (in basic configuration). 109 has to make opponent slow down to kill him. 30mm has power, but its effective range is short (however, B 17s are alergic to it, and I recommend using single 30 mm against them, in high 11 or 1 oc passes). Sucker climbing tactics are the best for killing fighters in 109. But, arena players have option to run away, rather than climb to fight. Also, 109 has to be slower than other planes to make a kill. This makes it vulnerable to other planes in the area. Climb advantage is the hardest advantage to use against an opponent, and higher plane can easily eliminate it. What this translates to is that you just have to dive away from 109 to be safe.


OTOH, 109 is a remarkable 1 on 1 and HTH plane. I have flown it on ladder for numerous sorties, and it really shines when you try to get E advantage against an opponent. Your opponent has to kill you, he can't run away. When Arena opponent sees you have gained E advantage over him, he will run to ack or friendlies. 109 can't follow, it will compress. Building E advantage in a duel takes quite a while, and Arena is no place for long duels. You can bet your position is reported on enemy country channel, and there is a P 51D high coming to kill you.

There  

[Vermillion]

Nice analysis Hristo !  

I agree totally.

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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires "

[leonid]

Hristo,
I feel for you.  Also, those who have waited for the C.205.  Let's hope they get the F4U & the B-26(?) out soon, so that work can begin on fixing the FM.  In any case, the days of the uberstang are numbered.

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129 IAP VVS RKKA

[-kier-]

Put me on the Dinger side of the analysis; I think more of my deaths come from trying to set a fragile bird down than anything. Comaparitively speaking, you can slam the La5 on the ground without a scratch; try that in a Spit and you will die. One in five flights in Spits result in death for me (due to landing mishaps), and I'm veeeerrry careful about it. I bring it in flat and slow, lotsa flap and power to hold it just right. No other plane gives me any trouble!

The hardest plane (for me) to survive in in A2A is the Nikki. Oh sure, you can kill with it, but once the fight is joined you don't get out until all the bad guys are dead or running. In fact, when I enter a furball the last plane I kill is the Nikki, as it is the lowest threat. In my mind, it is the expert's plane, with lots of newbies in it looking for their "Zero".

The Macchi got the short end of the stick this time around too, and I tend to agree it more closely resembles the MC202 (except for armament) in performance. The worst part of it is the extremely erratic flight model (nose bounce, heavy trim). It's early yet, and we'll see what happens down the road.  

[Pongo]

I think that the high numbers for the 190 are for the same reason as the LA5. You dont see them as often as 51s and spits but in the hands of a good pilot they can vulch like a food proccessor. Joemud had 16 kills in one mission last night. 15 were against the same guy but the stats dont know that.

The LA5 is a well flown plane.  I think that the most interesting thing is that these guys are not gaming the game. They are getting in there on base defence and bomber intercepts.  

[Dinger]

I hate to say the kieren, but I'm gonna hafta retract some of what I said.
After actually bothering to RTFM, the K/D ratios aren't pure K/D ratios.  Rather they're Kills Awarded vs. Awarded as Kills.
Hristo's analysis of the 109 is spot on.
I'll also suggest (and, as always, I can be wrong) that (and I have no experience on which to judge this), something in the vert. ability of many planes (such as the Macchi and the 109) is seriously lacking.  Two questions: A. The macchi, (or probly any other), trimmed for level flight, at max speed, cannot perform an immelmann -- it stalls out. Is this normal?  B. As a result, one of the tactics I've seen here to avoid the B&Z and in no other on-line FS is to pull up.  The booming plane at speed (no matter what it is) does not have the elevator to follow.  At the appropriate moment roll inverted (because you ain't gonna get enough down elevator of that puppy), apply up elevator, roll topside and waste the fool who shoot in front of your sights trying to hit you.

Kier's right about the Macchi's stability -- only the 109 can come close WRT nose bounce.  Worse, the c.205 burns so much E on turns it has to be used as a B&Z plane.  In that role, it is bested by just about everything else out there.

As for the weakest guns in the game, with the 109, whether you've got the 55 magic bullets or some combo of 20mm, demands you get in close to be effective.  The Macchi's 20mm feel like 151/20 knockoffs (are they?), and don't compare to the devastating punch found in the La's twins.  HSs are durn fine too.  So I stand by that.

[juzz]

The Macchi cannon feel like MG151/20 knockoffs because they ARE MG151/20's  

[Laika]

The La is a very nice fighter, my fav in AH by far. I thought the Pony would better it (K/D), but then I dont see many good P51 BnZ'er about. The 190's cannons have got to keep it a hi scorer. I killed a B17 @ D600 first time out, maybe a little too easy?. I've been smoked at D800 by spray and pray 190's   .. ouch ! .. Pity about the 109G-10.

laika

[-kier-]

Laika-

When are you on? There are numerous 51 jocks that will pound your head over-and-over from the BnZ. When I fly the 51 is the most numerous plane, and it can be a tough nut. A P51 with a 2K vertical separation over you is imminent death.  

[shower]

i guess i'll have to fly the la-5 for a while to bring that ratio down :-)

i'm surprised at the low evaluation of the n1k.  as far as i can tell, it's an unbeatable flat scissors plane, which *everyone* here uses when defensive.  you can get in and stay in someone's elbow all day in that thing (assuming you don't get shot up by someone else, of course!).

shower

[-kier-]

As long as that Nikki doesn't have you nailed to the floor, you can escape anytime with a dive.