Author Topic: Island Hopping  (Read 1892 times)

Offline Sakai

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Island Hopping
« on: September 23, 2003, 11:52:21 AM »
We want a new map.

Please.

The F4U was one of the storied rides of the Pacific and needs a featured setup, it is one of the dominant craft of its type and yet is the only major CT ride that has no featured setup.  Time to make one that fetaures the Marine Air Wing, Time for Island Hopping and we need lots of help.

So, how hard is it to take an existing Pacific map and provide a constellation of small island bases, close together for steaming purposes of ships, lots of fleets, one or two (3?) airbases and a VH or 2 on each, lots of SBs and acks?

How hard, what needs to be done and would we be allowed to run it?  

Say to represent early war the US has to get a few bases using only Wildcats and SBDs once done they get the whole suite?

Come on, let's make an Island Hopping map, it was the whole Pac war, how can we not have one?

Sakai
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Offline Batz

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« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2003, 12:29:24 PM »
its been done

they used the main "island map". It was brady and I in a6m5s (no nikis because they were whined away) vrs 35 others using every plane available to the us including b17s and b26s.

Guess what, it sucked. It was these setups that shaped brady into the cm he is today. Read hazed's comments in the other thread, ask karnak how it was or Nifty.

The whole pac war wasnt f4us there were plenty of other planes flown by the us. But even so theres no real ground war in ah. The ct isnt a"war" where folks enlist and most carry forth not matter how crappy it is. While most us types would be fine building battling in an empty arena not many folks will fly japanese planes. Thats what happened before and thats what will happen again.

The only way to get more diverse pac set ups is with more planes on both sides. But it certainly wont ever work if say the next us plane is a p47n and the japanese get a claude. There are  other variants of the ki67 and hell even the n1k1 would be good. But with out new planes there is no way to put on a historical pac set up.

In an open arena balance is more important then strictly historical match ups.

These arent mini scenarios or events. It called the combat theater and any set up that shifts from combat to main play or unbalanced gameplay sucks.

Now you certainly can build you a map and research the planes skins and all that. Get it built and send it to skuzzy to be put up for download. Then find a receptive ct cm to put in on. I doudt brady would waste any time on such a map or set up. Or any ct cm would either. But take a clue from kanttorri and build the maps you want and see what happens.

Offline Reschke

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« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2003, 12:32:49 PM »
Unit locations, TO&E's and time frames are easily found with a little digging and I have some in a notebook somewhere in my attic.

Also lets not limit it to just a few plane types. It needs to be realistically setup... in a geez here is that word...balanced way. Not only with US only aircraft but also Aussie and Kiwi aircraft. Plus it will ruffle some feathers but there were only a few areas that had more than a couple of aircraft types within it from the Allied perspective.

BUT the biggest thing (if I understand what I have read of the Terrain Editor) is finding sufficient terrain data. We all know that the Guadalcanal area has pretty good information but areas like Rabaul and Bouganville (sp?) in New Georgia are lacking from what I have found. I have been working on a scenario for the Battle of the Phillipine Sea for a while in my spare time. Unfortunately I haven't found adequate FREE terrain data for the area around Saipan.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2003, 12:36:30 PM by Reschke »
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Offline Batz

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« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2003, 12:43:02 PM »
I can draw you up the map but I dont have time to do the whole thing.

What you can do is decide on a size of the map

draw it out grey scale (white being land and highest elevation black being water)


I can help you get it through the te. But be aware that a new version should be out shortly.

You need remember some simple things when laying out the bases

bases beyond 25 miles mean long flight times and boredom.

So when laying out your fields go through and layout the "historical" ones then go back and add fields (even if they arent historical) so you create areas where flight times are short so folks can find a fight.

Its not that hard. The ct maps should be 256 x 256 (main small maps) bases need to be close enough to prevent boredom and all coastal fields need sbs and lotsa aaa.

I get home form work late and will be busy all week but you can email me and I will help you.

I already did up a map that was set for the "battle of the bismark sea" . It had the North eastern tip of New Guinea, New ireland new britain etc.

I deleted it a while back because the planeset isnt no where complete enough but I am sure I can easily redo it

Offline Batz

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« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2003, 12:47:25 PM »
I got most of the info for the bismark sea here


http://www.historicwings.com/features99/bismarcksea/

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2003, 12:54:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Reschke
Unit locations, TO&E's and time frames are easily found with a little digging and I have some in a notebook somewhere in my attic.

Also lets not limit it to just a few plane types. It needs to be realistically setup... in a geez here is that word...balanced way. Not only with US only aircraft but also Aussie and Kiwi aircraft. Plus it will ruffle some feathers but there were only a few areas that had more than a couple of aircraft types within it from the Allied perspective.

BUT the biggest thing (if I understand what I have read of the Terrain Editor) is finding sufficient terrain data. We all know that the Guadalcanal area has pretty good information but areas like Rabaul and Bouganville (sp?) in New Georgia are lacking from what I have found. I have been working on a scenario for the Battle of the Phillipine Sea for a while in my spare time. Unfortunately I haven't found adequate FREE terrain data for the area around Saipan.


Ran across a pdf file on the Navy's history site that would help tremendously. I just with the terrain editor wouldn't crash on my machine or I'd already have had this done. ;)


Offline Arlo

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« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2003, 12:55:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Batz
I can draw you up the map but I dont have time to do the whole thing.

What you can do is decide on a size of the map

draw it out grey scale (white being land and highest elevation black being water)


I can help you get it through the te. But be aware that a new version should be out shortly.

You need remember some simple things when laying out the bases

bases beyond 25 miles mean long flight times and boredom.

So when laying out your fields go through and layout the "historical" ones then go back and add fields (even if they arent historical) so you create areas where flight times are short so folks can find a fight.

Its not that hard. The ct maps should be 256 x 256 (main small maps) bases need to be close enough to prevent boredom and all coastal fields need sbs and lotsa aaa.

I get home form work late and will be busy all week but you can email me and I will help you.

I already did up a map that was set for the "battle of the bismark sea" . It had the North eastern tip of New Guinea, New ireland new britain etc.

I deleted it a while back because the planeset isnt no where complete enough but I am sure I can easily redo it


Your first post was pretty whiney. Glad to see the turn around. Who knows, maybe you can be an asset in this endevour after all. :D

Offline najdorf

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« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2003, 12:58:01 PM »
And herein lies the rub.  You can submit any map you want, but the CM's determine what planes are available and what restrictions are to be placed on that availability.  I'm not sure why anyone thinks changing maps will alter any restrictions on the rides available.  It will still be the same people making that determination.

I mean, look at Batz first reply,"It's been done and didn't work, we ain't gonna do it again."

In a reply to that, we aren't asking for a setup featuring F4U4's vs. B5N's.  What we would like is one with widely available F4U's vs. whatever IJN rides you wish to throw in against them.  Please let me know why this is impossible.

Offline Reschke

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« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2003, 01:10:02 PM »
Rgr that Batz. My initial thoughts once I saw Sakai's proposal on the other thread was to wait till the new TE comes out but to have the ground work finished up before actually starting on something new. The same as I hope to do with the scenario I was wanting to work up also.
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Offline Batz

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« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2003, 01:13:22 PM »
Quote
It's been done and didn't work, we ain't gonna do it again


I have nothing to do with the ct. I said I doudt anyone would. If you want a map or a setup you go out and do the work to get it added. I also know brady pretty well and know he wont do it for ya either. There are those other ct cms. Try to get them to agree with ya.

Thats what I said.

Also I said look at kantorri he and his squaddies and others not only made the map, skins and  custom fields but they developed the planeset and write up. Nothing is stopping you from doing the same.

Tardlo,

I have np helping folks even if i dont agree with what it is they are doing. The ct ceratinly isnt hurt by addign more variety. I just think that until we get more plane variety most of  what is done in the ct in regards to pac stuff is as good as it gets.

Once new planes arrive then more doors open.

Offline Batz

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« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2003, 01:22:35 PM »
Np rechske

I dont think the way the te functions will change much. Most likely new objects and tiles etc will be added to bring it up to ah2 standards.

I am sure you can get some practice time in. Search the TE forum for a link to the akbmp2map. I believe pokie has it on his ftp. This program is very easy to use. You can use ogres map maker but it spits out only 512x512 maps. It allows public domain elevation maps to be imported to the Aces High terrain format.

Brady and I are working on a scenario that will run some time in 2004.

For okinawa brady spent time going to museums to get images of the field layouts and the guy who did the skins spent lotsa time researching for correct paint schemes.

Just let me know if you need help, I will do what I can.

Offline Reschke

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« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2003, 02:55:43 PM »
Found a good link for the GPS points of Papua New Guinea and am downloading it now to try and rebuild that map. Also found the image for the map as well.
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Offline brady

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« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2003, 03:18:07 PM »
I was able to find an Intelegance report on Okinawa at The Oregon Milityary Museum, one that was caried into combat on the Island by a US Army Captain, who donated it to the museum, it contained detailed arieal photos of the entire Island and all it's airfields, and those on Ie Shima, these were scaned by me and sent to Kanttori, the intell report also contained detailed topagrifical data and info on all the towns, ect.

 All the Plane Skins for the Slot map and The Okianwa map were reseached by me and sent to the skiners, while in some cases different skins were used than the ones I provided refrences for 90% of them are ones I looked up, I also looked up Ship and Vehical skins refrences, and reseached unit historys to some extend to verify those which were or should of been included in the area. This is somthing I have done for most all the maps we presently use in the CT and for the skins on several of those map's, notable exceptions are the Fin Russ map's.

 I could most likely dig somthing up on any of the areas your interested in Reschke in terms of skin refrences and or Map data, also if you are intending to use these map's in the CT I would very much like to advise you on things like base placemt and simply take a look at the map priour to it going to Skuzzy, this is intended to simply help in the development process to sugest CT friendly things is all, this is somthing I also do on most all the maps we use in the CT.


najdorf:  As Batz as mentioned in the past the CT ( Yes some of my own set up's) have had Unlimited F4U's of all types in them aganst the present Japanese plane set, as he mentioned these set up suffered from a serious lack of atandnce. We also had the same problem in set up's for other theaters featuring plane set's that had the same problems. Those problems are ....Namely huge preformance differances between the planes. What we discovered is that when these diferances exist players get frustrated and log out, so we through the learning curve have discovered that if we try and creat a set up whear each side has a fighting chance that each side is likely to feal good and stay and fight. A big problem we have in the PAC set up area is of course a lack of Japanese planes from all times of the war to set aganst the comparatively huge allied plane set AH has. In the Early/mid war and Late war set up peroouds the Japanese are Missing their best preforming planes from the AH plane set, while the Allies have their's, this creats magor set up problems for the CT if we wish to adheaer to the concept of fair for both sides plane set's. In the present set up I wanted to include the P47 and the F4U both of which have a huge preformance advantage over the Japanese planes, but the problem is that if left without restrictions we would see a lot of runing cheary picking and other un-fun things hapining, which puts us back to the low atandance levals from our past, so I limited both their availabalitys and focused the magority of the fighting on the Hellcat and the FM2 which when fighting the present Japanese set forces good fights and good action, this combined with the Much Faster F4U's and P47's makes for a real chalange to the Japanese plane set.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2003, 03:23:04 PM by brady »

Offline Sakai

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« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2003, 03:36:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by najdorf
In a reply to that, we aren't asking for a setup featuring F4U4's vs. B5N's.  What we would like is one with widely available F4U's vs. whatever IJN rides you wish to throw in against them.  Please let me know why this is impossible.


Exactly, I think rolling planeset through the week. The US starts with F4Fs, TBMs and SBDs on CVs and has to take an Island or two, then they can have P-40Es, etc. On Tuesday, F4Us and every plane for the Japanese. Let the Japanese start with teh Ki-67 and BOTH A6Ms, add the Ki-61, then the Niki. If they lack too much in bombloadout, let them have the Ju88 in Nipponese livery.

Do you start in your corner or end run up the map? Split up your CVs to try and split defender strength? Might be fun.

Does not have to be historically accurate, just has to have Island Hopping as an opportunity for both sides.

Hey, Japs have boats too. They can re-capture.

How does resupply of bases work? Can we have a few big centers of resupply that feed certain sector so fthe map, once those are destroyed you can pound a base and it withers away?

Sakai
« Last Edit: September 23, 2003, 03:41:36 PM by Sakai »
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Offline Sakai

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« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2003, 03:43:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by brady
Inajdorf:  As Batz as mentioned in the past the CT ( Yes some of my own set up's) have had Unlimited F4U's of all types in them aganst the present Japanese plane set, as he mentioned these set up suffered from a serious lack of atandnce.  


Brady, is this true if it is simply the Corsairs?  I mean, Hogs are fast but low and slow you can kill them.  If they don't have the Fm2/Hellcat combo to "hold the leg whilst we skin her" then could we have a more even up fight?

Sakai
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