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[Pooh21]

Great pics!

looking forward to AH2

but next time please get that ugly grey fly off the camera lens before taking pictures!;)

[blackwitch]

Originally posted by Tilt
Looking great............  as the panel work is going to be quite detailed is there any chance of the cannon bulge in the wing  being on the panel behind the cannon rather than some where  between cannon and fuselage.

Experts will correct me but i believe early MkIX's had a big fat "c" bulge and later MkIX's had a thinner bulge to the left or the right side of the panel which is more common.

In case Tilt was pitching.. I'm catching....

The Spit IX has a mix of weapon ordnance, if you take the 20mm cannons and 4 .303's that is a "c" wing, in the c wing the cannon is inboard in the gun bay and the bulge should be inboard on the gunbay access panel. The 4 x .303's are in the outer gunbays

If you take the 20mm cannons and 2 x .50's that is an "e" wing, on the  e wing the the cannon AND the .50 cal are in the same gun bay, here the cannon is outboard and the .50 MG is inboard therefore the bulge is outboard on the gunbay access panel (and it was smaller).

this is modelled in AH as you can see when you do the convergance settings on a MkIX, however, as there is only 1 spitfire "model" the cannons are always shown outboard.

When the .50's were used the outer (.303) gunbays had sealed panels.

Witch
(see you at the Con' tilt, I'll bring my heameroid cream  

[Nilsen]

You mean that ugly shaped thingy with brit markings Pooh?

[blackwitch]

Originally posted by Bullethead
I've also been shot at by a bunch of Soviet-bloc MGs, and they didn't leave smoke trails, either.  All I've seen in real life has been the fire of the tracer element itself.

So it seems to me that smoke trails existed early in the war, at least for the Brits.  But it didn't take long for everybody to develop smokeless tracers, which is what we still have today.

I too have had the privilege of seeing tracers (inbound and outbound) and IIRC (from the bottom of my trench) there were NO smoke trails.

I've seen some smoke trails in gun camera footage, however... IMHO I think the smoke trails we see in gun camera footage could well be caused by condensation from the heat of the phosphorus causing a smoke trail, perhaps we only see it in gun films taken at High altitude?

The spiralling trail is from the shaking camera, as bullets don't rotate like that in flight.

In AH I think the most realistic way to display tracers would be to have the bright yellow of the tracer rounds but NOT the smoke trail.

As my shooting instructor used to say at the MG range...
"Please remember that tracer rounds are lighter than the other “normal” bullets being fired (as the Phos’ burns off) so they tend to fall less than the other rounds, the further out you go from the gun the more noticeable this is".

[Pooh21]

Originally posted by Nilsen10
You mean that ugly shaped thingy with brit markings Pooh?

the very thing!
its blocking my view!

[JimBear]

take a look at the gun cam footage at this site for a good look at hi and lo alt tracers

[Westy]

Well.  A "Hollywood" or a real effect it doesn't matter much to me anymore.  I've conceded the fight to the windmill
 However IMO you can't knock the AH tracer smoke without also taking up the issue of hearing external sounds in flight.  

 Westy

[Rutilant]

The (i'm guessing) high alt tracers in that footage definitely looked.. um.. fluffier..


These look wirey... not too pleasing to look at, either


Not whining, just pointin that out..

[NHawk]

Originally posted by blackwitch
I've seen some smoke trails in gun camera footage, however... IMHO I think the smoke trails we see in gun camera footage could well be caused by condensation from the heat of the phosphorus causing a smoke trail, perhaps we only see it in gun films taken at High altitude?

The spiralling trail is from the shaking camera, as bullets don't rotate like that in flight.

I'll agree with the smoke trails being high alt.

But, a bullet DOES rotate and wobble in flight which would cause the spiralling trail. No bullet flys absolutely true.

[blackwitch]

Originally posted by NHawk
But, a bullet DOES rotate and wobble in flight which would cause the spiralling trail. No bullet flys absolutely true.

Rounds Rotate for sure, unless the barrel has no rifling but, in my experience, wobble usually occurs in smaller calibre rounds after they've travelled some distance, in fact it's more of a "tumbling".

I still think a lot of the spiralling tracer in the gun films is generated by the camera.

perhaps, like the sound effects, we need options for tracer, more than we have now..
Tracers OFF
Tracer rounds
Tracer rounds and smoke

Witch

[blackwitch]

Originally posted by Bullethead
But it didn't take long for everybody to develop smokeless tracers, which is what we still have today.

The phospherous in tracer rounds will generate smoke, perhaps it is accentuated at alt? or it could be the earlier war films that have the most smoke?

[Kaz]

The tracers you're looking at are recently fired rounds. If you look at the last pic in the series of the P51 firing at the runway, you see the after effect. That is, the smoke expands considerably more.
This effect going from the wiry spirals to the much more dense tracer smoke most likely will be in under a second to a second, ya know, for the 'wow' factor.
Looks pretty good to me, realistic or not.

[Heater]

Looks like it was written in Basic by a PUTZ!

[Charon]

I never have, either, and I've shot many different MGs. I've also been shot at by a bunch of Soviet-bloc MGs, and they didn't leave smoke trails, either. All I've seen in real life has been the fire of the tracer element itself. The recent war with Iraq was all on TV--how many smoke trails did you see?

The only context in which I can remember ever seeing smoke trails is in guncam film from the early war, like the BoB. Brit tracer of that vintage, at least, left spiral smoke trails exactly as you see in these shots, although I can't recall seeing it in German film of the same vintage. But certainly by later in the war, German guncam film doesn't show the smoke, and I can't think of any US guncam flim that does. And this applies to film from ground battles and light ack vs. air attack as well.

So it seems to me that smoke trails existed early in the war, at least for the Brits. But it didn't take long for everybody to develop smokeless tracers, which is what we still have today.
Bullethead

I agree. I've shot plenty of rounds through an M-2 and never noticed a smoke "trail." Plenty of smoke around the gun, bright tracers, a dusting of unburnt powder crackling its way down the barrel at night and the tracer element occasionally popping out on impact and sometimes in flight down range. Of course, this was at sea level using modern ammunition.

The only time I ever actually saw a spiral was when a barrel was shot-out and the spirals were "huge" -  a foot or more and getting larger as the round went down range it seemed.

[whels]

guys remember, the trail ur talking about in RL isnt really a smoke trail as much as a contrail.  the bullet is HOT and the air it is passing through is VERY cold, as the bullet travels it leave the contail much like high flying planes do with thier engine exhaust.

u wont see the trail shooting guns on the ground cause the air
is ALOT warmer then @ 30k.

whels

Originally posted by Charon
I agree. I've shot plenty of rounds through an M-2 and never noticed a smoke "trail." Plenty of smoke around the gun, bright tracers, a dusting of unburnt powder crackling its way down the barrel at night and the tracer element occasionally popping out on impact and sometimes in flight down range. Of course, this was at sea level using modern ammunition.

The only time I ever actually saw a spiral was when a barrel was shot-out and the spirals were "huge" -  a foot or more and getting larger as the round went down range it seemed.